# Okay, I have read Lord of the Rings now and I have some questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [February 25, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988 "2012-02-25T19:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/21 "2012-02-27T03:06:01Z")
> [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](#): > > 1. Is it ever revealed what happened to the Entwives? I seem to remember some speculation that the Entwives moved to the Shire (what was the name of the forest in the Shire where the trees moved?). I know that was my first thought when Treebeard was talking about losing them. Bob ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/22 "2012-02-27T11:24:29Z")
> [@urban1a](#): > > I seem to remember some speculation that the Entwives moved to the Shire (what was the name of the forest in the Shire where the trees moved?). I know that was my first thought when Treebeard was talking about losing them. It’s deliberately left as a mystery, but IIRC Tolkien wrote in a letter that he thought they were all dead. They certainly aren’t in The Shire, although Treebeard remarks the entwives, being gardeners, would like that land. The entwives dwelt in The Brown Lands, which were destroyed during the War of the Last Alliance. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/23 "2012-02-27T11:37:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve never really bought that Arwen was actually able to make the Choice of Luthien. Her first cousins, the sons of Elros, resented their father’s choice of mortality, but were _not_ able to choose otherwise. It seems odd, to me, that the children of Elrond would be able to choose. I think that the choices of Elrond and Elros irrevocably bound all of their lines. You would be in error. The children of Elrond were allowed to choose to stay in mortal lands, and become mortal if they did. But their only opportunity for making that choice was when Elrond left for the West. Arwen, by not leaving with her father, decided to become mortal. I have a vague memory that there’s a reference to Elladan and Elrohir in the appendices to the Lord of the Rings, so they stayed behind as well. I’ve always understood Arwen choosing to die when she did as because, after Aragorn died, the lustre went out of Middle-Earth at last and, being unable to journey into the West, she went to Cerin Amroth and there died herself. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/24 "2012-02-27T13:07:22Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > They certainly aren’t in The Shire, although Treebeard remarks the entwives, being gardeners, would like that land. And I’m guessing they’d pick names like _“Goldberry.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/25 "2012-02-27T13:20:44Z")
Whatever Goldberry is, she isn’t an entwife. The potential for tasteless jokes shouldn’t be underestimated. (Tom Bombadil - “Do yah like me when I’m [huorn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huorn)-y, baby.”) Treebeard is pretty vague when describing entwives, bu he does say “their eyes were the eyes of our people”. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/26 "2012-02-27T13:25:10Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > …although Treebeard remarks the entwives, being gardeners, would like that land… Tramps. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/27 "2012-02-27T14:27:16Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Tramps. But not gypsys or thieves. ---
**Author:** ![Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Christopher_Robin_Davies)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/28 "2012-02-27T15:54:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even if it had realized, all Maiar are not equal. Gandalf is explicitly said to be the _wisest_ of the Maiar, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s the most _powerful_. And even what native power he had was suppressed by the form he had taken (he’s somewhat less suppressed when he comes back as the White, but still not fully unleashed). Who are the Maiar other than Gandalf? Was the Balrog a Maiar? What about the Nazgul? ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/29 "2012-02-27T15:59:36Z")
Christopher Robin - off the top of my head I know that the other wizards were Maiar and I know that the Nazgul are men (kings in fact) who were corrupted by rings of power & who now have great power of intimidation and control but have become undead wraiths totally subject to Sauron, esp when he has the One Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/30 "2012-02-27T15:59:54Z")
> [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](#): > > Who are the Maiar other than Gandalf? In the trilogy: Gandalf and Saruman (and the rest of the Wizards) The Balrog Sauron No one else in the Trilogy was a full-on Maia, IIRC (Tom Bombadil notwithstanding.) However, it is noted that many characters in the trilogy are descendants of Maia through a long-ago Maia-Elf marriage (and subsequent Elf-Human marriage). Even Aragorn is related to the Maia. How much this (and his elf-blood) factors into his power is unclear. ---
**Author:** ![Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Christopher_Robin_Davies)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/31 "2012-02-27T16:15:20Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Christopher Robin - off the top of my head I know that the other wizards were Maiar and I know that the Nazgul are men (kings in fact) who were corrupted by rings of power & who now have great power of intimidation and control but have become undead wraiths totally subject to Sauron, esp when he has the One Ring. Right, I should have remembered that part from the movies, sorry. Is there a reason given in the books as to why none of the dwarves become nazgul? ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/32 "2012-02-27T16:17:09Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > In the trilogy: > Gandalf and Saruman (and the rest of the Wizards) > The Balrog > Sauron > > No one else in the Trilogy was a full-on Maia, IIRC (Tom Bombadil notwithstanding.) Also possibly Goldberry, though that’s not stated. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/33 "2012-02-27T16:38:51Z")
> [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](#): > > Is there a reason given in the books as to why none of the dwarves become nazgul? Not exactly. IIRC, Tolkien just said it was not in the nature of dwarves to be dominated. Their rings did not extend their lives either, but they weren’t completely unaffected, their greed for wealth and gold was increased. “Gold, Gold, GOLD, GOLD, Gold, Gold, _Gold, Gold,_ GOOOOOOLD.” \* - Popular dwarvish song. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/34 "2012-02-27T16:51:50Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I would guess that the Balrog did realise Gandalf’s true nature during the confrontation on the bridge, all that boasting about being a “servant of the secret fire” was a bit of a giveaway. . I had always thought that “servant of the secret fire” was a mention of Gandalf’s Ring, one of the Three. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/35 "2012-02-27T16:56:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I had always thought that “servant of the secret fire” was a mention of Gandalf’s Ring, one of the Three. 😕 Gandalf was basically saying he was a servant of Illuvator. [QUOTE=Gandalf] “You cannot pass,” he said. … “I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the [flame of Anor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_of_Anor). The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/36 "2012-02-27T16:59:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I had always thought that “servant of the secret fire” was a mention of Gandalf’s Ring, one of the Three. 😕 It’s the life-giving and reality-bestowing power, courtesy of Iluvatar. From here: > **[Cosmology of Tolkien's legendarium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Fire)** > > The fictional cosmology of J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium combines aspects of Christian theology and metaphysics with pre-modern cosmological concepts in the flat Earth paradigm, along with the modern spherical Earth view of the Solar System. > The created world, Eä, includes the planet Arda, corresponding to the Earth. It is created flat, with the dwelling of the godlike Valar at its centre. When this is marred by the evil Vala Melkor, the world is reshaped, losing its perfect symmetry, and t... ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/37 "2012-02-27T17:04:14Z")
> [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](#): > > Is there a reason given in the books as to why none of the dwarves become nazgul? The trilogy doesn’t go into it, but the origins of the dwarves are covered elsewhere. They weren’t created the same way as the other races, and they’re a bit different. I’ve always assumed that kept them from being fully compatible with the rings. They’re running on an ethernet network and everyone else is on… …a token ring. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/38 "2012-02-27T17:05:45Z")
The Dwarves that acquired the Seven rings probably hoarded them, rather than wearing them. It is stated somewhere that they are all believed to have been lost to dragons, who raided dwarf hoards for fun and profit. (See The Hobbit.) Only wearing the ring and wielding its power leads to wraithhood. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/39 "2012-02-27T17:13:08Z")
> [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](#): > > Right, I should have remembered that part from the movies, sorry. > > Is there a reason given in the books as to why none of the dwarves become nazgul? I’ll let [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Power) and [One Wiki to Rule Them All](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Rings) do the heavy lifting here. > [@](#): > > **The Seven** > Also in the Second Age Sauron gave the Seven to various Dwarf-lords (though the Dwarves of Moria maintained a tradition that the ring given to Durin III came directly from the Elven smiths).[6] Gandalf mentions a rumour that the seven hoards of the dwarves began each with a single golden ring. The main power of the Seven on their wearers was to excite their sense of avarice, and the Dwarves used their rings to increase their treasure. The wearers did not become invisible, did not get extended life-spans, nor succumb directly to Sauron’s control – though he could still influence them to anger and greed.[1] > > Over the years, Sauron recovered three rings from the Dwarves, the last from Thráin II during his final captivity in Dol Guldur some years before the beginning of The Hobbit. The remaining four, according to Gandalf, were destroyed by dragons.[7] > Until the Council of Elrond, the Dwarves did not know that Thráin had held the ring of Durin’s line and had lost it to Sauron. They thought instead that it might have been lost when Thrór was killed by Azog in Moria.[4] One of the motivations for Balin’s doomed expedition to Moria was the possibility of recovering the ring. Sauron’s messenger attempted to bribe the Dwarves of Erebor for news of Bilbo (the last known bearer of the One) with the promise of the return of the remaining three of the Seven. > [@](#): > > The Rings of Power were the masterwork of the elven-smiths of Eregion headed by Celebrimbor who was descended from Fëanor. Encouraged and assisted by Sauron, who could at that time still assume a fair appearance and came to Eregion under an assumed name, the Seven and the Nine were made with his assistance. The Three were made by Celebrimbor alone. Many other lesser rings were made, described in the The Silmarillion and by Gandalf, though they were generally looked upon as too weak to consider. In secret, Sauron forged the One Ring in the fires of Orodruin, seeking to bring all the rings and their wearers under his sway. The elves sensed his intention and hid the Three, not using them until after the One Ring had been lost in the Gladden Fields. The Seven and the Nine seemed to favor their bearers, but in time brought them to ruin. Men under Sauron’s command as the Nazgul, dwarves, harder to dominate, overmastered by their greed for precious things. > > Their purposes were put to use in the Third Age by the elves that used them to preserve the land and to gain insight into the present and the future. Sauron did have a hand in making the Rings of Power (although the Dwarves claim that the chief Dwarven ring was given to Durin III by Celebrimbor himself) but he never touched the three elven rings which is why they were not tainted by his power. The making of the rings was such an undertaking that when Sauron planned to make the One Ring he had to place a majority of his power in that ring in order to hold sway over the other rings made by the elves. That is why the rings were not used in the Second Age by the elves since Sauron wore his during that period. Sauron presented the other rings to the leaders of the races of Men and Dwarves in order to control them. Men proved easily controlled, but the Dwarves were too tough and unlike Elves or Men could not be controlled through their rings. Long story short, Sauron tried to control the dwarves but they weren’t susceptible to the influence directly. Instead Sauron used them to amplify their inherent vices in lust for gold and treasure and pride. This was not much different from the Nine in that it amplified the men’s inherent need for power and long life. But men are more malleable and were able to be directly controlled. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/40 "2012-02-27T18:26:34Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > The trilogy doesn’t go into it, but the origins of the dwarves are covered elsewhere. They weren’t created the same way as the other races, and they’re a bit different. I’ve always assumed that kept them from being fully compatible with the rings. They’re running on an ethernet network and everyone else is on… > > …a token ring. Snort!😃 From the LoTR wiki: The rings of power did not have the effects that Sauron had intended, possibly because **Aulë** had made the dwarves especially to resist evil domination. The only apparent effect of the rings was that the Dwarves became more greedy, but they were not turned into wraiths like men. > **[Dwarves](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Dwarves)** > > Dwarves were a race of Middle-earth also known as the Khazâd (in their own tongue) or Casari, Naugrim, meaning "Stunted People", and Gonnhirrim, the "Masters of Stone". They are the oldest of the Free Peoples of the World. The Dwarves were made by... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988.md?page=3)