# Okay, I have read Lord of the Rings now and I have some questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [February 25, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988 "2012-02-25T19:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/61 "2012-03-12T23:47:04Z")
Also, it’s not correct to speak of “the nine” and “the seven”. Sauron got his hands on a bunch of random power rings, and handed them out to various humans and dwarfs. It’s only afterwards that each ring because associated with humans or dwarves. The three of course were different, Sauron had no part in their making. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/62 "2012-03-13T02:21:40Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Also, it’s not correct to speak of “the nine” and “the seven”. Sauron got his hands on a bunch of random power rings, and handed them out to various humans and dwarfs. It’s only afterwards that each ring because associated with humans or dwarves.. I don;t read it that way. Each had it’s own specific gemstone, and there’s no reason to suppose each didn’t have it’s own name, history, etc, and the the Nine wee made for Maortal man, etc. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/63 "2012-03-13T03:25:31Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Nitpick, Sauron had no input on the making of the Three. Those were made in secret after the Elves got wind of Sauron’s plan. That said the Elves were apparently in the dark about the One. Sauron still managed to upload malware to the Three. It was when the Elves got wind of Sauron’s plan that they took them off and stopped using them, because they were linked to the One Ring. The Three had been made previously. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/64 "2012-03-13T03:26:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I don;t read it that way. Each had it’s own specific gemstone, and there’s no reason to suppose each didn’t have it’s own name, history, etc, and the the Nine wee made for Maortal man, etc. Except that they weren’t. [ > [@Encyclopedia of Arda](#): > > Over the following decades, with Annatar’s [Sauron’s] help, the Elves made sixteen Rings of Power, each set with a gemstone. Both the Elves and Annatar had their own secret aims, though, and each forged work of their own. Celebrimbor and the Elves made Three Rings more powerful than the others, Narya, Nenya and Vilya, the Rings of Fire, Water and Air. > … > There was a tradition among the Dwarves of Durin’s Folk that Celebrimbor had already given them one of the Rings of Power before Sauron attacked. At this time, Durin’s Folk still lived in their ancient home of Khazad-dûm, neighbouring Eregion to the east, and there was great friendship between the Elves and the Dwarves. According to the Dwarves, Celebrimbor gave a Ring as a gift to the then King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III. Hence, Sauron would have recovered fifteen of the Rings, not all sixteen. ]([The Encyclopedia of Arda - Rings of Power](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/r/ringsofpower.html)) That information is from _The Silmarillion_, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/65 "2012-03-13T04:09:58Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Except that they weren’t. > > [url=[The Encyclopedia of Arda - Rings of Power](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/r/ringsofpower.html)] > That information is from _The Silmarillion_, I believe. Nothing there contradicts what I said. Yes, they made 16, 9+7. Where does it say the rings were all identical? In fact, Gandalf said that each of the other Rings each had it’s own stone, and he should know. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/66 "2012-03-13T05:21:15Z")
They weren’t all identical, but nor were they inherently grouped into Nine and Seven. That’s just the way they ended up being distributed. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/67 "2012-03-13T06:06:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nothing there contradicts what I said. Yes, they made 16, 9+7. Where does it say the rings were all identical? In fact, Gandalf said that each of the other Rings each had it’s own stone, and he should know. The footnote about the dwarves, for one thing. It’s possible that _one_ of the rings was given to a dwarf, though it’s not certain. One ring, possibly given to the king of a friendly power with close ties to the elves of Eregion. Not seven, and none for Men. With the exception of the One, the rings were made by and for the elves (with help from Sauron on the lesser rings). When Sauron attacked the elves after the One was forged, he seized the lesser rings from them and distributed them among dwarves and men to spread his power. ---
**Author:** ![nofloyd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nofloyd/32/2870_2.png) [@nofloyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nofloyd)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/68 "2012-03-13T17:39:35Z")
1. Is it ever revealed what happened to the Entwives? Just a quick remembrance. In Fellowship when random villagers were in pub, think Sam was only main character in there, they were talking about a hobbit who said he saw an oak tree walking out on the moor. Wasn’t talking about in Old Forest and tree weirdness there. Someone said disparagingly that what he saw prob was an oak tree. I do think of this when Fangorn says entwives would like shire. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/69 "2012-03-13T17:56:51Z")
Okay - here’s a question - How did the Eagles know to show up when they did at the Black Gate? Someone on another board posited that Tolkien never met a deus-exo-machina he didn’t like, but I’m guessing the Eagles had been keeping an eye on how the war was going. Or Radagast told them. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/70 "2012-03-13T18:14:57Z")
Radagast, the Eagles or Manwe himself are all fair answers. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/71 "2012-03-13T18:37:28Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Also, it’s not correct to speak of “the nine” and “the seven”. Given that Tolkien has his “expert” characters (Gandalf, Sauron, and Elrond) speak in exactly those terms, I think we can call the usage correct. It is amazing how this story, with its roots in WWI and completion by the early '50s, foreshadows computer hacking, including reverse engineering, backdoors, spoofing, malware, etc. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/72 "2012-03-13T18:37:32Z")
> [@nofloyd](#): > > 1. Is it ever revealed what happened to the Entwives? > > Just a quick remembrance. In Fellowship when random villagers were in pub, think Sam was only main character in there, they were talking about a hobbit who said he saw an oak tree walking out on the moor. Wasn’t talking about in Old Forest and tree weirdness there. > > Someone said disparagingly that what he saw prob was an oak tree. > I do think of this when Fangorn says entwives would like shire. Could be talking about the Old Forest: [link](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/The_Old_Forest) > [@](#): > > “But the forest is queer… And the trees do not like strangers. They watch you. They are usually content merely to watch you, as long as daylight lasts, and don’t do much… But at night things can be most alarming, or so I am told. I have only once or twice been in here after dark, and then only near the hedge. I thought all the trees were whispering to each other, passing news and plots along in an unintelligible language; and the branches swayed and groped without any wind.” > —Merry, Fellowship of the Ring And/or Old Man Willow: [link](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Man_Willow) Edit: I know you said they weren’t talking about the Old Forest. Are you sure? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/73 "2012-03-13T18:49:36Z")
In either the first or second chapter Sam is in a pub talking, mentions the rumor about the walking trees in far parts of the Shire, and Ted Sandyman calls him out for it. And Treebeard says the Shire sounds like a place the entiwves would have liked. So I choose to believe they were there. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/74 "2012-03-13T19:56:01Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Given that Tolkien has his “expert” characters (Gandalf, Sauron, and Elrond) speak in exactly those terms, I think we can call the usage correct. In the “modern” (i.e. late Third Age) context in which they were speaking, yes, it would be correct. At that point, the lesser rings had become associated with that split. In the context of the time of their creation, on the other hand, they were just one big batch of rings–each was presumably unique, and there was nothing about them to group them into “the Seven” and “the Nine” at that point. Those terms arose because of how Sauron distributed them. The latter is the context to which **Lemur** is presumably referring. (The Three, on the other hand, were a distinct set to start with, since they were made without Sauron’s direct assistance.) ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/75 "2012-03-13T23:28:26Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Could be talking about the Old Forest: [link](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/The_Old_Forest) > > And/or Old Man Willow: [link](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Man_Willow) > > Edit: I know you said they weren’t talking about the Old Forest. Are you sure? 🙂 An _elm_ tree - not that there’s much difference in size between that and an oak - and it’s stated as being on the North Moors, whereas the Old Forest is to the southeast of the Shire. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/76 "2012-03-14T02:07:03Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > In the context of the time of their creation, on the other hand, they were just one big batch of rings–each was presumably unique, and there was nothing about them to group them into “the Seven” and “the Nine” at that point. Altho there’s nothing about this that can be proven wrong, there’s also nothing to say that the 16 weren’t designed for Humans-9 & dwarves- 7. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/77 "2012-03-14T03:33:26Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Given that Tolkien has his “expert” characters (Gandalf, Sauron, and Elrond) speak in exactly those terms, I think we can call the usage correct… Yeah, y’know, I was pretty sure I’d heard those exact numbers used somewhere before: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3\_2D\_ErL\_I](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3_2D_ErL_I) ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988/78 "2012-03-14T05:32:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Altho there’s nothing about this that can be proven wrong, there’s also nothing to say that the 16 weren’t designed for Humans-9 & dwarves- 7. All right, fine. I’m home now, and have _The Silmarillion_ at hand. Wall of text incoming. > [@The Silmarillion](#): > > It was in Eregion that the counsels of Sauron were most gladly received, for in that land the Noldor desired ever to increase the skill and subtlety of their works. Moreover they were not at peace in their hearts, since they had refused to return into the West, and they desired both to stay in Middle-earth, which indeed they loved, and yet to enjoy the bliss > of those that had departed. Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power… > > Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow… > > But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of an that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off **their rings**. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that **all the rings** should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and **three of their rings they saved** , and bore them away, and hid them… > > But Sauron gathered into his hands **all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth** , hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. **Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine** , for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. Bolding is mine. When they sensed Sauron’s completion of the One, the Elves took off _their_ rings. Sauron attacked them and demanded _all the rings_. The Elves saved three rings–later referred to as the Three–and Sauron gathered _all of the others_ and gave them to Dwarves and Men. There, direct from the source. Sauron attacked the Elves and took all the rings except the Three from them. Logically, that means that the Elves still had them all, which only makes sense, because they made them to try to turn their own lands into a semblance of Valinor. They didn’t make them to hand out to other races–Sauron did that in a bid to extend his power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-i-have-read-lord-of-the-rings-now-and-i-have-some-questions/613988.md?page=3)