# Okay, let's have that "Does AA work?" thread. (Alcoholics Anonymous) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706 "2010-10-19T21:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/41 "2010-10-20T18:46:13Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I don’t have any research, but on Penn & Teller’s Bullshit, they said that AA’s rates are consistent with virtually every other treatment and means of quitting, including simply stopping without any other support or assistance. They concluded that the chances of quitting alcohol are statistically consistent no matter what you choose, and in the end it’s a “to each his own” thing. Even there, one runs into statistical difficulties, because the population of people who try AA (or any other treatment) are likely to be people who have tried to quit without any treatment and have not succeeded. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I guess it doesn’t matter how manu times this gets answered, but here we go again: What they lose is time wasted in a program that might not be for them, exasperating the problem, and they lose self respect because AA teaches that they are incapable of helping themselves and if it doesn’t work for them, _they_ have failed, not AA. There are tradeoffs with any approach. Other treatments are likely to cost much more than AA in terms of money, with little evidence of any better success. And any program is going to take time (although one need not necesarily limit oneself to any one approach at a time; one could attend AA while also seeing a therapist, say). Moreover, the point you make about the person being the one who has failed applies to other approaches as well. For instance, if one tries to stop on one’s own – i.e., manage one’s drinking without AA or any other treatment at all – and that’s not successful, it’s hard to characterize that in any way other than that the person failed. That’s likely to harm one’s self respect in much the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/42 "2010-10-20T18:58:30Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Moreover, the point you make about the person being the one who has failed applies to other approaches as well. For instance, if one tries to stop on one’s own – i.e., manage one’s drinking without AA or any other treatment at all – and that’s not successful, it’s hard to characterize that in any way other than that the person failed. That’s likely to harm one’s self respect in much the same way. You _might_ get that feeling if another approach doesn’t work, but AA actively teaches it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/43 "2010-10-20T18:58:47Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Cite ? Er… really? [Here you go](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy). ---
**Author:** ![Pann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a4c791/32.png) [@Pann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pann)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/44 "2010-10-20T19:03:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You _might_ get that feeling if another approach doesn’t work, but AA actively teaches it. I have never, in all the time I have spent in AA, heard this. I’ve heard many people (myself included) say that AA is the only thing that worked for them, but never that AA is the only possible solution. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/45 "2010-10-20T19:04:13Z")
Is it the “Higher Power” stuff that has devout skeptics panties in a twist? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/46 "2010-10-20T19:07:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is it the “Higher Power” stuff that has devout skeptics panties in a twist? Screw reading the thread-just get that cheap shot off, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Pann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a4c791/32.png) [@Pann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pann)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/47 "2010-10-20T19:09:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I guess it doesn’t matter how manu times this gets answered, but here we go again: What they lose is time wasted in a program that might not be for them, exasperating the problem, and they lose self respect because AA teaches that they are incapable of helping themselves and if it doesn’t work for them, _they_ have failed, not AA. AA does not teach this!! There may be _individuals_ in AA that have this opinion, but it is certainly not the viewpoint of AA as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/48 "2010-10-20T19:16:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is it the “Higher Power” stuff that has devout skeptics panties in a twist? I think it’s more the anecdotes used as evidence. To bring up Scientology again: look at the number of highly successful people in the entertainment industry who are Scientologists. Obviously it works, right? Anybody who’s skeptical just has an axe to grind, correct? Those people who say Scientology robbed them were just sore losers because they couldn’t make the program work for them! Why, I could find you just as many people who said Scientology changed their lives for the better! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/49 "2010-10-20T19:21:10Z")
> [@Pann](#): > > AA does not teach this!! There may be _individuals_ in AA that have this opinion, but it is certainly not the viewpoint of AA as a whole. I’m trying to find mention of what to do if AA isn’t for you on their official website, but I’m drawing a blank. No mention of AA not being suitable for all, and no mention of altenative therapies if AA doesn’t work. Can you help me out here? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/50 "2010-10-20T19:30:46Z")
How would they know? What criteria could they offer to make such a judgement, that they might offer without any fear they might discourage someone who very much needed their help? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/51 "2010-10-20T19:37:24Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > I think it’s more the anecdotes used as evidence. To bring up Scientology again: look at the number of highly successful people in the entertainment industry who are Scientologists. Obviously it works, right? Anybody who’s skeptical just has an axe to grind, correct? Those people who say Scientology robbed them were just sore losers because they couldn’t make the program work for them! Why, I could find you just as many people who said Scientology changed their lives for the better! I can’t imagine why you keep bringing up Scientology, save for a deliberate attempt to sneer. IMHO, Scientology was invented from whole cloth for the sole purpose of fleecing the gullible. However, now it has generated a base of true believers, who were not in on the original design, and truly believe the hogwash. This is unfortunate, but not actually relevant. If you have some proof that AA was designed as a “for profit” enterprise, bring. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/52 "2010-10-20T19:39:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Screw reading the thread-just get that cheap shot off, dude. Have you an actual response, or do you simply insult me out of reflex? Dude. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/53 "2010-10-20T19:43:52Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Moreover, the point you make about the person being the one who has failed applies to other approaches as well. For instance, if one tries to stop on one’s own – i.e., manage one’s drinking without AA or any other treatment at all – and that’s not successful, it’s hard to characterize that in any way other than that the person failed. That’s likely to harm one’s self respect in much the same way. AA is a “No True Scotsman” approach. Again from their own book: > [@](#): > > Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. > > SOURCE: [The Big Book | Alcoholics Anonymous](http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf) (PDF) So, if you do the program you are cured. If you are not cured you did not do the program. Neat how that works. In the AA world they apparently achieve near 100% effectiveness to hear them tell it (they nicely included the weasel word “rarely” to not have to defend a literal 100% success rate). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/54 "2010-10-20T19:44:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I can’t imagine why you keep bringing up Scientology, save for a deliberate attempt to sneer. IMHO, Scientology was invented from whole cloth for the sole purpose of fleecing the gullible. However, now it has generated a base of true believers, who were not in on the original design, and truly believe the hogwash. This is unfortunate, but not actually relevant. > > If you have some proof that AA was designed as a “for profit” enterprise, bring. Would you prefer that we reference some other human endeavor which is supported only by anecdotal evidence from people who are immune to reason? Homeopathy? Astrology? Numerology? I bet if one of those people was on this board posting how great their snakeoil was, because it helped their daddy, you’d be tossing your little digs their way. But because we’re discussing a version of snakeoil that you favor, somehow science is wrong and statistics is just cynicism, and lalalalalalalala can’t hear you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/55 "2010-10-20T19:58:09Z")
However grateful I should be for your assessment of my character and its faults, perhaps this is not the appropriate forum? ---
**Author:** ![Pann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a4c791/32.png) [@Pann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pann)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/56 "2010-10-20T19:58:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m trying to find mention of what to do if AA isn’t for you on their official website, but I’m drawing a blank. No mention of AA not being suitable for all, and no mention of altenative therapies if AA doesn’t work. Can you help me out here? Of the top of my head, in the forward to the big book (the “text” of AA) it says that “Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly. Yet it is our great hope that all those who have as yet found no answer may begin to find one in the pages of this book.” Like I said, that is just off the top of my head, as I am at work and my book is at home. As to there being no mention of what to do if AA isn’t for you, just because there is no mention doesn’t mean that that’s the “official” stance. That’s a pretty big leap to go from no mention to of any alternatives to it being AA’s view that there are no alternatives. For an example, are there other stores to shop at aside from Wal-Mart? Of course there are. Is there any mention of the other stores on Wal-Mart’s website? Of course there isn’t. Why would any website, for any organization, mention other options? Before AA even existed, there were alcoholics who have stopped drinking. What AA claims is to have a course of action that, when followed, has helped millions of alcoholics that otherwise might not have stopped drinking. Not once, in all of my years of coming to AA and then subsequently drinking again, have I been told that I am a failure because of it. I would certainly never say that to an alcoholic who has started drinking again. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/57 "2010-10-20T20:00:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I can’t imagine why you keep bringing up Scientology, save for a deliberate attempt to sneer. IMHO, Scientology was invented from whole cloth for the sole purpose of fleecing the gullible. However, now it has generated a base of true believers, who were not in on the original design, and truly believe the hogwash. This is unfortunate, but not actually relevant. > > If you have some proof that AA was designed as a “for profit” enterprise, bring. Actually, that’s the first time I brought up Scientology, since it’s the first time I’ve posted on the topic. But the nefarious goals of Scientology aren’t the issue. The point is that the criteria for judging the effectiveness of the organizations are the same, and just because you don’t approve of one and think the other is helpful makes no difference when determining whether they “work”. If we were discussing astrology or homeopathy, would you be arguing as strongly as you are for AA? FTR, I have no bone to pick with AA on a personal level; it’s had zero effect on my life. But you have to use the same standards for evaluating it as you would anything else that claimed to affect behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/58 "2010-10-20T20:02:32Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Would you prefer that we reference some other human endeavor which is supported only by anecdotal evidence from people who are immune to reason? Homeopathy? Astrology? Numerology? > > I bet if one of those people was on this board posting how great their snakeoil was, because it helped their daddy, you’d be tossing your little digs their way. But because we’re discussing a version of snakeoil that you favor, somehow science is wrong and statistics is just cynicism, and lalalalalalalala can’t hear you. I’m not an alky and I have no knowledge whatsoever about the effectiveness or otherwise of AA: but I do not see that science had reached any kind of consensus as to whether AA works or not. Not unusually, for addiction issues which are, as of yet, poorly understood. So far, what I’ve seen are dueling websites and studies, some of which conclude that it works, and some of which conclude that it doesn’t. Each “side” claims the other is biased and producing _bad_ science. Neither side has any particular, obvious _reason_ to be biased, though - yet, obviously from this thread, it is a subject that engages strong passions, both ways. To me, what distinguishes this matter from homeopathy, etc. is that AA has a mechanism of action which has, to my mind at least, a certain inherent _plausibility_ - namely, “cult-like” social pressure. What makes AA sorta “cult-like” is also what makes me think it at least possible that it could work for some - as we know in other settings, “cults” can get folks to do stuff they normally would not do on their own, like give away all their money or drink cool-aid in Jonestown. Seems at least plausible to me that a “cult-like” organization can get folks to _stop drinking_, if one can get folks to do those other things. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/59 "2010-10-20T20:04:20Z")
Well, the most impressive cite in the thread so far is the NIH study–I tend to put more faith in that sort of thing than in screeds by people who take their names from Quentin Tarrantino movies. That said, and I cannot emphasize this enough, the first thing that ANY problem drinker should do if they want to stop drinking is SEE THEIR DOCTOR. For a real addict, coming off of alcohol–or any other intoxicant–can be serious business. Get medical attention first, then go from there. ---
**Author:** ![Pann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a4c791/32.png) [@Pann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pann)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/60 "2010-10-20T20:07:11Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > …That said, and I cannot emphasize this enough, the first thing that ANY problem drinker should do if they want to stop drinking is SEE THEIR DOCTOR. For a real addict, coming off of alcohol–or any other intoxicant–can be serious business. Get medical attention first, then go from there. Absolutely! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706.md?page=4)