# Okay, let's have that "Does AA work?" thread. (Alcoholics Anonymous) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706 "2010-10-19T21:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/161 "2010-10-21T20:19:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Is there evidence that the use of AA has impeded other avenues of research? **Czarcasm** just answered this much as I would have. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/162 "2010-10-21T20:26:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why look for a better solution if you think the best is already out there, and there is no way to prove otherwise? Is there any evidence that scientists, or indeed any sizable number of folks, think that AA is the “best” solution, much less “like a direct message from God On High that Must Be Kept Whole And Never Questioned”? My impression is more that it was _cheap_ and _available_. Other options, such as rehab, always existed, but cost lots of money - money that people did not have themselves, and money that insurers and governments were unwilling to part with on their behalf. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/163 "2010-10-21T20:27:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Why look for a better solution if you think the best is already out there, and there is no way to prove otherwise? That isn’t what you were asked. Your answer would be valid enough for why someone in AA doesn’t seek out other alternatives, but you were asked for evidence that AA has directly and positively impeded any such effort. If you have such, now would be a good time to bring it. Otherwise, its fair to assume that you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/164 "2010-10-21T20:36:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Because as “you understand him” is meaningless in this regard. > > You can think God is the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Lady Gaga. In the end you are appealing to an outside, supernatural source to intervene on your behalf and cure you. > > I do not see that as anything like a rational, science based approach to mental health therapy. > > And there is nothing inconsistent with looking at a list and thinking some items have value and others are bullshit. > > However, when the whole list must be accomplished to achieve the goal and half the list is based on bullshit it throws the whole thing into serious doubt. I see nothing wrong with cherry-picking the good stuff however. According to _you_ the phrase is meaningless. Guess what, there are people who disagree with you. Can you tell me where, exactly, A.A. states that the whole list must be done and that you must believe in god? The problem is, you can’t. Straight from the A.A. big book. > [@](#): > > Here are the steps we took, which are \*suggested \*as a program of recovery: I am not appealing to any outside force for my recovery. I am using a series of steps (while ignoring the god part) devised by a couple drunks. The power greater than myself isn’t a god, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any other supernatural force. It is a way of thinking about life and its problems and a way of acting. Nothing more. I also use meetings, which aren’t supernatural, as method to assist in maintaining my sobriety. A.A. was not devised by scientists. Unless some one has come out with something new, there is no science based program that reliably deals with addiction or alcoholism. The failure rates for all treatment options are pretty bad.The studies on A.A. are all over the place (see my previous link for one suggesting that attending A.A. doubles the sobriety percentages long term) but the group is very hard to study as alkies tend to not be very responsible. **Czarcasm** , do you have any thoughts on the study I posted? Also, I am very sorry to hear about your FIL. Slee ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/165 "2010-10-21T20:40:48Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > According to _you_ the phrase is meaningless. Guess what, there are people who disagree with you. Can you tell me where, exactly, A.A. states that the whole list must be done and that you must believe in god? The problem is, you can’t. Yeah, yeah, and Revelations is all allegory. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/166 "2010-10-21T20:49:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If only the people involved in AA had spent the last 70 years reviewing the process, researching what worked and what didn’t, instead of treating it like a direct message from God On High that Must Be Kept Whole And Never Questioned, we might have the answers that people have been recently looking for. I’m not an expert, but I think the way meetings and other AA activities are run now has probably changed over the years, even if the steps and traditions have not. There are e-meetings now, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/167 "2010-10-21T20:53:02Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Yeah, yeah, and Revelations is all allegory. [Well…yeah, actually.](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/168 "2010-10-21T20:56:56Z")
Its rather odd that a grass roots organization whose success is based on the support of its members alone, definitely not its leadership, should somehow be responsible for the lack of research and funding by the government or others or responsible for all alcoholics in general. Interesting enough, if New York folded its offices, AA member groups wouldn’t even notice. Perhaps we should discontinue food banks or food stamps, because we are ameliorating the problem rather than being forced to address the problem of poverty more fundamentally. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/169 "2010-10-21T20:57:41Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > According to _you_ the phrase is meaningless. Guess what, there are people who disagree with you. Straight from the AA Big Book: > [@](#): > > If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer. > > \ > > Well, that’s exactly what this book is about. Its main objective is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. > [@sleestak](#): > > Can you tell me where, exactly, A.A. states that the whole list must be done and that you must believe in god? The problem is, you can’t. Can you show me where they feel their steps are optional? What is the point of an organization pushing a 12 step program that they consider any of the steps optional? Do you really think AA feels it is a cafeteria style of therapy and participants should just pick the parts they want? You may have done that but it doesn’t mean AA supports that view of their program. > [@](#): > > A.A. was not devised by scientists. Unless some one has come out with something new, there is no science based program that reliably deals with addiction or alcoholism. The failure rates for all treatment options are pretty bad.The studies on A.A. are all over the place (see my previous link for one suggesting that attending A.A. doubles the sobriety percentages long term) but the group is very hard to study as alkies tend to not be very responsible. I already posted about this: > [@](#): > > SMART Recovery® is the leading self-empowering addiction recovery support group. Our participants learn tools for recovery based on the latest scientific research and participate in a world-wide community which includes free, self-empowering, science-based mutual help groups. > > SOURCE: [http://www.smartrecovery.org/](http://www.smartrecovery.org/) I can’t speak much to that program but they have the blessings of the NIH. So, it is not a complete desert out there for addiction therapy but pretty close aside from AA. While that program exists good luck finding one local to you that meets your needs. Oh and guess what! Their meetings are free as well (with the donation hat passed around just like AA). ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/170 "2010-10-21T21:04:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Money and efforts for other treatments have been stymied as a result. Cities as big as Houston have no other alternatives. Now who’s arguing by anecdote? :dubious:😛 Smart Recovery, which as you noted is a non-12-step program, has six locations in Houston. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why look for a better solution if you think the best is already out there, and there is no way to prove otherwise? NIAAA alone is budgeted at a half-billion dollars per year. That research money is going somewhere. **Melon** ’s selection of cites may be misleading and subject to caveats, but their very existence shows that research is constantly trying to review the efficacy of alcohol treatment, rather than leaving it unchallenged. There are non-12-step programs and rehab centers all over the country, some of them taking in thousands of dollars per patient. If one of them produced identifiably better results, there would be a big economic incentive to expand and copy its model. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I would help him find the best program possible, using the available research. There, I think we’re all stuck. I wish we could say that the existing research points consistently to some particular option, but I don’t see how it does. Trial and error may be all that any person can manage. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/171 "2010-10-21T21:04:06Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Perhaps we should discontinue food banks or food stamps, because we are ameliorating the problem rather than being forced to address the problem of poverty more fundamentally. For the love of G-d, man, don’t give them any ideas! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/172 "2010-10-21T21:08:03Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Its rather odd that a grass roots organization whose success is based on the support of its members alone, definitely not its leadership, should somehow be responsible for the lack of research and funding by the government or others or responsible for all alcoholics in general. So how did AA get into our legal system such that states have mandated AA treatment or in our prisons where they force AA treatment? I mean, no one is there pushing anything right? Must’ve magicked itself into state laws. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/173 "2010-10-21T21:11:41Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > According to _you_ the phrase is meaningless. Guess what, there are people who disagree with you. How about according to me and the New York Supreme Court? (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > Concededly, there are passages in A.A. literature, relied upon heavily by respondents, the Appellate Division and the dissent here, which, in stressing the openness and inclusiveness of the A.A. movement, eschew any intent to impose a particular sectarian set of beliefs or a particular concept of God upon participants. However, **a fair reading of the fundamental A.A. doctrinal writings discloses that their dominant theme is unequivocally religious** , certainly in the broad definitional sense as “manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity” (Webster’s 9th New Collegiate Dictionary 995 [9th ed 1990]). Indeed, **the A.A. basic literature most reasonably would be characterized as reflecting the traditional elements common to most theistic religions**. Thus, God is named or referred to in five of the 12 steps. “Working” the 12 steps includes confessing to God the “nature of our wrongs” (Step 5), appealing to God “to remove our shortcomings” (Step 7) and seeking “through prayer and meditation” to make “contact” with God and achieve “knowledge of His Will” (Step 11 [emphasis supplied]). The 12 Traditions include a profession of belief that “there is one ultimate authority – a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.” > > While A.A. literature declares an openness and tolerance for each participant’s personal vision of God (“as we understood Him” [Steps 3 and 11] [emphasis in the original]), **the writings demonstrably express an aspiration that each member of the movement will ultimately commit to a belief in the existence of a Supreme Being of independent higher reality than humankind**. > > SOURCE: [IN THE MATTER OF DAVID GRIFFIN, APPELLANT, v. THOMAS A. COUGHLIN III, AS COMMISSIONER OF THE NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES, ET AL., RESPONDENTS.](http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I96_0137.htm) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/174 "2010-10-21T21:15:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I can’t speak much to that program but they have the blessings of the NIH. Great, but I tried to contact them by registering on their website to peruse their message board and was told they couldn’t register me at this time. Strike 1. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/175 "2010-10-21T21:17:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How about according to me and the New York Supreme Court? (bolding mine) The statement is pure bullshit ! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/176 "2010-10-21T21:21:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How about according to me and the New York Supreme Court? (bolding mine) Did you miss this part? > [@](#): > > …In so holding, we in no way denigrate the proven effectiveness of the A.A. approach to alcoholism or drug addiction rehabilitation… I mean, you didn’t quote it, or mention it, so I was kinda wondering if you missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/177 "2010-10-21T21:23:14Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > The statement is pure bullshit ! Why? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/178 "2010-10-21T21:23:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Did you miss this part? > > I mean, you didn’t quote it, or mention it, so I was kinda wondering if you missed it. Proven effectiveness ? Damn, I missed that. I’d like to take back my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/179 "2010-10-21T21:24:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Did you miss this part? > > I mean, you didn’t quote it, or mention it, so I was kinda wondering if you missed it. I was not answering a question on the effectiveness of AA so how is that relevant? The relevant bit that we were discussing was: _“While A.A. literature declares an openness and tolerance for each participant’s personal vision of God (“as we understood Him” [Steps 3 and 11] [emphasis in the original]), the writings demonstrably express an aspiration that each member of the movement will ultimately commit to a belief in the existence of a Supreme Being of independent higher reality than humankind.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/180 "2010-10-21T21:26:44Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Great, but I tried to contact them by registering on their website to peruse their message board and was told they couldn’t register me at this time. > > Strike 1. Therein lies the problem I have been on about. What little alternative there is is barely there at all. AA is darn close to the only answer available if someone wants to get sober. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706.md?page=10)