# Okay, let's have that "Does AA work?" thread. (Alcoholics Anonymous) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706 "2010-10-19T21:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 1\ **Showing post:** 3
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706/3 "2010-10-19T21:47:20Z")
The research I offered in the other thread: > [@I think I'm an alcoholic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-an-alcoholic/557324/11): > > > [@Twickster](#): > > > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > > > Not to mention that AA doesn’t work. > > > > That’s gotta be one of the most ignorant fucking things you’ve ever spewed here. AA absolutely does work, for me and millions of other people. > > [Are](http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html) [you](http://cbtrecovery.org/AAefficacyrates.htm) [sure](http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/1587/1/Estimates-of-AAs-Effectiveness/Page1.html) about that? A 2-5% success rate isn’t very good. A 10% success rate wouldn’t be very good. A 25% success rate wouldn’t be much better. It seems that AA doesn’t really effect whether a person is going to stay sober or not. > > > [@The Orange Papers](#): > > > > Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring. > > > [@CBT Recovery](#): > > > > An extensive study (Hester and Miller, Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches) shows that peer-based 12-step alcohol treatment programs do NOT have a higher success rate than no treatment at all. Facilitated 12-step treatment (trained facilitators guiding subjects through the twelve-step process) were marginally better. “The two tests of AA found it inferior to other treatments or even no treatment but were not sufficient to rank AA reliably.” > > > [@Addiction Info](#): > > > > In terms of new-member dropout rate, all five surveys were in close agreement. According to the “Comments” document, the “% of those coming to AA within the first year that have remained the indicated number of months” is 19% after one month; 10% after three months; and 5% after 12 months.xii In other words, AA has a 95% new-member dropout rate during the first year of attendance. > > > > If success is defined as one-year’s sobriety, on the face of it this 95% dropout rate gives AA a maximum success rate of only 5%; and a great many new members do not remain continuously sober during their first year in AA, which causes the apparent AA success rate to fall even lower. > > People in AA have the same success rate as those not in AA. > [@I think I'm an alcoholic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-an-alcoholic/557324/56): > > > [@guizot](#): > > > > AA isn’t going to “work” on anyone against their will. Instead of asking, “How many people don’t stay sober,” the research needs to ask, “How many people–everywhere–who have stayed sober attribute that to their involvement with AA?” But if you’re taking a sample only from people who have gone to AA, or only people who have relapsed, you can’t do that, so the conclusion you draw from that research is disingenuous. > > [George Vaillant “an advocate of the standard hospital and AA treatment program, reviewing his own studies of his own program in The Natural History of Alcoholism”](http://cbtrecovery.org/AAefficacyrates.htm): > > > [@George Vaillant](#): > > > > It seemed perfectly clear that . . . by inexorably moving patients from dependence upon the general hospital into the treatment system of AA, I was working for the most exciting alcohol program in the world. But then came the rub. Fueled by our enthusiasm, I and the director . . . tried to prove our efficacy. Our clinic followed up our first 100 detoxification patients. . . . [and found] compelling evidence that the results of our treatment were no better than the natural history of the disease. > > > [@CBT Recover on George Vaillant's findings](#): > > > > One interesting observation: a long-term study of over 4,500 subjects found that more treated alcoholics than untreated alcoholics had been abusing or dependent on alcohol within the previous year! --- _[View the full topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-lets-have-that-does-aa-work-thread-alcoholics-anonymous/557706)._