# Okay, now it's time to put antifa in the same class as racists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2017, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922 "2017-08-28T10:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/181 "2017-08-30T16:56:25Z")
Don’t bother thanking Trump, he’ll take it as a compliment. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/182 "2017-08-30T17:19:23Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > A bunch of people carrying weapons and torches marching around your house, chanting “kill the gays” isn’t any kind of threat to you? > > \*assuming you are gay, I have no idea. I’m bi, which has never placated a homophobe. Depends whether they have targeted my house, or if the are marching past my house as part of a general protest. The latter is not (from the point of view of whether I’m allowed to respond violently to them) a direct, imminent threat. And like I’ve said before, I’d much rather they are out in the open. When a handful of them march, and next Pride there are tens of thousands of people, they can’t claim they are a silent majority if they’ve had the chance to have their say. Pushing abhorrent views underground helps nothing, it won’t stop people holding those views and makes any conversation with what few of them might actually be willing to listen much harder. It also makes any understanding of _why_ they feel that way more difficult, again making change harder. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/183 "2017-08-30T18:02:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m bi, which has never placated a homophobe. Depends whether they have targeted my house, or if the are marching past my house as part of a general protest. The latter is not (from the point of view of whether I’m allowed to respond violently to them) a direct, imminent threat. > > And like I’ve said before, I’d much rather they are out in the open. When a handful of them march, and next Pride there are tens of thousands of people, they can’t claim they are a silent majority if they’ve had the chance to have their say. Pushing abhorrent views underground helps nothing, it won’t stop people holding those views and makes any conversation with what few of them might actually be willing to listen much harder. It also makes any understanding of _why_ they feel that way more difficult, again making change harder. But what happens when you elect one of them president? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/184 "2017-08-30T18:04:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Advocating for white supremacism is deliberately harming people. Lots of people. Just like doing the paperwork for orders to ship Jews to camps is evil. Or administrating paperwork for the sale of slaves. Or passing Jim Crow legislation. These things harm far more people, and in far worse ways, than punching a single person in the face. > > Punching people in the face is wrong, except in self-defense. Advocating for white supremacism is much more wrong. So you advocate violence to prevent speech? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/185 "2017-08-30T18:07:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nobody is disagreeing with that abstract statement. In fact, the main reason that people object to Nazis and white supremacists is their willingness to use violence in pursuit of political ends. > You seem to be very mixed up between the concepts of “worse **behavior** ” and “worse **people** ”. > > Nobody is denying that anti-fa who punch people are **behaving** worse than Nazis/ISIS/white supremacists who (for the moment) conduct themselves peacefully. **But that does not necessarily mean that the anti-fa punchers are worse people overall**. That’s partly because you believe, naively, that antifa are motivated by what they say. Why not encourage people to beat up religious people whom you disagree with. Eternal damnation for believing the wrong thing is surely worth a punch in the nose. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/186 "2017-08-30T18:12:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [Antifa Organizers Announce Plans To Disrupt Neo-Nazi Rally Or Whatever Else Going On That Day](http://www.theonion.com/article/antifa-organizers-announce-plans-disrupt-neo-nazi--56783) > > Antifa Organizers Announce Plans To Disrupt Neo-Nazi Rally Or Whatever Else Going On That Day Are you seriously that fucking retarded? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/187 "2017-08-30T18:15:48Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > So if a large torch-wielding group of men marched past your house calling for your death, your reaction would be “Man, those guys’ views suck”? Who would be more in the wrong, morally, me for attacking them, or them for saying, “Death to America!”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/188 "2017-08-30T18:18:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So you advocate violence to prevent speech? Huh? I specifically said, multiple times, that I think violence to suppress speech is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/189 "2017-08-30T18:22:55Z")
Some of you are confusing supposedly peaceful deeds that in actuality contribute to monstrous evils with simply advocating for monstrous evils. A peaceful office worker at Auschwitz is still committing war crimes because he is aiding and abetting genocide. Whereas a person who calls for genocide is expressing a viewpoint and not actively hurting anyone. It’s the most horrible viewpoint one can possibly express but the words aren’t putting anyone in the hospital. And anti-fa is doing more than just punching people in the face. And they are doing more than just attacking neo-Nazis. They are attacking police, they are attacking journalists, because they are so sure of the rightness of their cause that they fear to be identified. And they are beating people badly enough to hospitalize them and may have killed someone at Berkeley. They’ve thrown Molotov cocktails at police. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/190 "2017-08-30T18:24:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Huh? I specifically said, multiple times, that I think violence to suppress speech is wrong. You have, and I think we’ve all agreed on that. What we don’t agree on is whether violence is worse than speech, which I do believe is a very dangerous view. “Words are violence” is being used as a justification for anti-fa’s “self defense”. That may not exactly be your argument, but you are clearly saying that some viewpoints are worse than violence. I think that view might be fashionable, but it’s not tenable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/191 "2017-08-30T18:30:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You have, and I think we’ve all agreed on that. What we don’t agree on is whether violence is worse than speech, which I do believe is a very dangerous view. “Words are violence” is being used as a justification for anti-fa’s “self defense”. That may not exactly be your argument, but you are clearly saying that some viewpoints are worse than violence. I think that view might be fashionable, but it’s not tenable. It’s not having a viewpoint – any viewpoint – that’s worse than punching someone in the face. It’s publicly advocating for white supremacist and nazi (and other hateful and inherently violent) ideologies. That’s an action, not just a viewpoint. I doubt anyone would argue with the assertion that “it’s morally wrong to berate and insult children on the street”. That’s a morally wrong thing to do. So is personally insulting strangers based on their appearance, or loudly mocking a disabled person that passes by on the street, or any of a million other really obnoxious things to do. So I think it’s not controversial that it can be morally wrong to express certain things in public. I’m asserting that advocating for ideologies that are inherently hateful and violent, like white supremacism, is morally very wrong. It’s hard for me to understand how some people don’t believe that advocating for these sorts of ideas has a moral component to it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/192 "2017-08-30T18:32:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Some of you are confusing supposedly peaceful deeds that in actuality contribute to monstrous evils with simply advocating for monstrous evils. A peaceful office worker at Auschwitz is still committing war crimes because he is aiding and abetting genocide. Whereas a person who calls for genocide is expressing a viewpoint and not actively hurting anyone. It’s the most horrible viewpoint one can possibly express but the words aren’t putting anyone in the hospital. And anti-fa is doing more than just punching people in the face. And they are doing more than just attacking neo-Nazis. They are attacking police, they are attacking journalists, because they are so sure of the rightness of their cause that they fear to be identified. And they are beating people badly enough to hospitalize them and may have killed someone at Berkeley. They’ve thrown Molotov cocktails at police. Those are all bad things, including the advocacy of monstrous evils. I think punching a peaceful journalist is a lot worse than punching a peaceful white supremacist. I think both are morally wrong, but not to the same degree. I feel entirely comfortable making such comparisons. Some actions are morally worse than others. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/193 "2017-08-30T18:41:05Z")
But I maintain that actions occupy a totally different moral place than words. Evil actions trump evil words, no matter how evil the words or how mild the action. Nazis hate me too. At this point, I fear anti-fa more than I do Nazis. Then again, I imagine that being pro-Israel can get you kicked in the head with the anti-fa folks too. So maybe I’m screwed either way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/194 "2017-08-30T18:47:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But I maintain that actions occupy a totally different moral place than words. Evil actions trump evil words, no matter how evil the words or how mild the action. Advocating publicly is action. Trying to convince others is action. These are all actions that are being compared – the actions of advocating publicly for white supremacism and the action of punching that guy who just advocated publicly for white supremacism. I feel comfortable saying that the former is morally worse than the latter, even while they’re both morally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/195 "2017-08-30T18:51:38Z")
And I think it’s dangerous to call attempts at persuasion or advocacy “action”. It justifies all kinds of things, even if you don’t intend it to. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/196 "2017-08-30T18:58:19Z")
I’d also note that since anti-fa does contain a lot of elements that advocate awful views. These kinds of groups don’t tend to have much difference in temperament from those they oppose. For many of them ,it’s not hatred for their racism that drives them, it’s hatred for what Nazis do to communists. Remember, they aren’t “anti-racism” they are “anti-fascism”. "No USA at all!" So I’d say on the scale of horrible advocacy, they come pretty close to the racists and probably have racist elements themselves. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/197 "2017-08-30T19:02:36Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And I think it’s dangerous to call attempts at persuasion or advocacy “action”. It justifies all kinds of things, even if you don’t intend it to. It’s just going by the dictionary definition. Would you really disagree with me that it’s morally wrong to loudly and publicly mock a disabled person on the street? Or shout insults about a stranger’s weight? Or insult children at a bus stop? And if these are morally wrong, then why isn’t it also morally wrong to try and convince someone that the Jews should be exterminated? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/198 "2017-08-30T19:09:16Z")
Although I think Berkeley’s mayor might be going a little far here, advocating that anti-fa be treated as a “gang”. I’m not sure what legal significance that has, but I’m not sure it’s accurate either. [http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/us/berkeley-mayor-classify-antifa-as-a-gang/vi-AAqUARD](http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/us/berkeley-mayor-classify-antifa-as-a-gang/vi-AAqUARD) Is there some kind of significance in California to labelling something a gang? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/199 "2017-08-30T19:41:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Advocating publicly is action. Trying to convince others is action. These are all actions that are being compared – the actions of advocating publicly for white supremacism and the action of punching that guy who just advocated publicly for white supremacism. I feel comfortable saying that the former is morally worse than the latter, even while they’re both morally wrong. And one is an action that is protected by the constitution and one is a crime in every jurisdiction in America. mc ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/200 "2017-08-30T19:47:36Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > And one is an action that is protected by the constitution and one is a crime in every jurisdiction in America. > > mc Yes, and as I’ve said multiple times, this is how it should be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922.md?page=11)