# Okay, now it's time to put antifa in the same class as racists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2017, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922 "2017-08-28T10:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/41 "2017-08-28T15:04:25Z")
Groups like the KKK are their own brand of horrible. I don’t see that there is anything to be gained by equating them to al Qaeda other than inviting the discussion to descend into a rat-hole where folks point out the differences. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/42 "2017-08-28T15:16:46Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > Not all right-wingers, but some want to enshrine their extreme, fundamentalist, misogynist, and homophobic sect of Christianity into law with no room for law-abiding productive citizens not of their sect. Substitute Christianity in that sentence with Islam and you have also described Al Queda or ISIS. I’m afraid this is a phantasy version of Christianity that might only exist in tiny ultra-fringe sects. Like John Mace posted, this is a not helpful post not only because its incorrect but only leads to finger pointing. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/43 "2017-08-28T15:19:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > THat’s true, the Nazis now have a friend in the White House, the antifas never have. But if we’re comparing them on the violence scale, the antifas consider violence to be their primary tactic, and they are the only political group in the country that functions this way. Knowing this, the police should act accordingly and crack their heads. You link to Vox’s interview with Mark Bray, who’s broadly sympathetic with Antifa – curious what you thought of it? For one thing, Bray’s work on Antifa suggests that, to generalize, they _don’t_ view violence as “their primary tactic:” > [@](#): > > But look, anti-fascists will concede that most of the time nonviolence is certainly the way to go. Most antifa members believe it’s far easier to use nonviolent methods than it is to show up and use direct action methods. But they argue that history shows that it’s dangerous to take violence and self-defense off the table. No-platforming is also accomplished through pre-emptive and non-violent means: for example, informing a music venue that the slate of bands they’re hosting this Saturday is all white power bands. Or doxxing people who are involved in fascist organizing. I think it’s crucial to condemn and eschew political street violence for all kinds of reasons, but I also still see a whole lot of shades of gray on the ethical/moral scale between Antifa and their opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/44 "2017-08-28T15:22:07Z")
I am worried that we’re going to start seeing acquittals of antifa and KKK folks. One of the big weaknesses in the American system is non-state political violence. We rely on juries to stop that violence, and they are very unreliable in doing so when the violence has a strong political valence. And because we require unanimous verdicts, all it takes is support for political violence in the double digits to prevent convictions. How did that play out in the 1960s? There were lots of acquittals of white supremacists in the South. Were there acquittals of leftist violence as well? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/45 "2017-08-28T15:32:16Z")
If you’re treating all “racists” as a class, yeah sure, it makes sense for antifa to be in the same class. I think at that point, this “class” includes almost everyone in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/46 "2017-08-28T15:38:24Z")
As a Liberal, I have zero problems with the police arresting Black Bloc people the minute they show up armed and masked at protests. Frankly, I wish they would, because it is pretty damned obvious that they show up with the intent to commit acts of violence. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/47 "2017-08-28T15:42:48Z")
The oppression of minorities by white supremacists has resonance in the US because it happened in an institutional and organized fashion. Lameass examples like Kaczynski or some fruitcake in Idaho 100 years ago have no more meaning than the Son of Sam murders. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/48 "2017-08-28T15:50:51Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I am worried that we’re going to start seeing acquittals of antifa and KKK folks. > > One of the big weaknesses in the American system is non-state political violence. We rely on juries to stop that violence, and they are very unreliable in doing so when the violence has a strong political valence. And because we require unanimous verdicts, all it takes is support for political violence in the double digits to prevent convictions. > > How did that play out in the 1960s? There were lots of acquittals of white supremacists in the South. Were there acquittals of leftist violence as well? This is a great set of concerns/questions. One thing to keep in mind when considering how political violence is/isn’t punished judicially is where political power lies. White supremacist violence went unpunished in places and times where white supremacists held political power. Looking to other countries as examples, left-wing violence was treated sympathetically by left-wing regimes. Taking principled stands against political violence is The Right Thing To Do. But when weighing the relative dangers of different species of political violence, I think it’s very important to take into account relative levels of threat. That’s ultimately a subjective call, informed by political tribalism to some degree, but it can also be looked at semi-objectively. What chance does Antifa have of achieving its goals politically? How about the alt-Right? And what danger does each pose? Are they really equivalent? It’s an open question, but I’ll point out that one side seems pretty okay with embracing murderous tyrants (Hitler) and another doesn’t (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot). Feel free to argue that Che T-shirts demonstrate an equivalence: I don’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/49 "2017-08-28T15:50:52Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Please explain for me the similarities between Al Queda terrorists and American right wingers. Maybe about the same as Khmer Rouge mass murderers and American Liberals. both harbor extreme views based on their own flawed interpretation of their respective religious texts. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/50 "2017-08-28T15:52:17Z")
😃 > [@Chimera](#): > > As a Liberal, I have zero problems with the police arresting Black Bloc people the minute they show up armed and masked at protests. Frankly, I wish they would, because it is pretty damned obvious that they show up with the intent to commit acts of violence. Seconded. Also, letting them get away with shit encourages more of this behavior. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/51 "2017-08-28T15:56:55Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > The oppression of minorities by white supremacists has resonance in the US because it happened in an institutional and organized fashion. > > Lameass examples like Kaczynski or some fruitcake in Idaho 100 years ago have no more meaning than the Son of Sam murders. Only because of our particular history – we’d be having a different conversation in Cuba, or Cambodia – but absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/52 "2017-08-28T15:57:21Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I’m afraid this is a phantasy version of Christianity that might only exist in tiny ultra-fringe sects. Like John Mace posted, this is a not helpful post not only because its incorrect but only leads to finger pointing. Not exactly what John Bredin said, but this bunch is close enough…and is no phantasy…[Dominion theology - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology) That said, violence in opposition to violence usually beclouds the situation and allows those in authority to take actions against those they ‘oppose’. There were street battles between Brown shirts and ‘Anti-fascists’ in 1930’s Germany, which led to a large number of people seeking ‘stability’, and so… Frankly, having huge numbers turn out to peaceably assemble in opposition to Nazism and White Supremacy sends the same message–and indicates what the large majority could do if the Nazis/KKK want to try and start something. IMHO as always. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/53 "2017-08-28T16:07:29Z")
As far as I can tell, the actual “antifa” types represent a fringe of a sliver. They’re being “pumped up” by the right for the usual reasons. The ability to demonize the entire opposition, the desire for false equivalency, etc. I wonder how much of the internet presence of “antifa” groups is in fact right-wing false-flag material. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/54 "2017-08-28T16:16:35Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > As far as I can tell, the actual “antifa” types represent a fringe of a sliver. They’re being “pumped up” by the right for the usual reasons. The ability to demonize the entire opposition, the desire for false equivalency, etc. I wonder how much of the internet presence of “antifa” groups is in fact right-wing false-flag material. There’s been some false-flagging – for example: [Is This 'Antifa Manual' Real? | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/is-this-antifa-manual-real/) But the “pumping up” dynamic you refer to is much more prevalent, IMHO. Taking 99% peaceful protests and tarring them because of real but unrepresentative violent acts. But wait! Can’t you say the same of the alt-right? They were mostly peaceful … with notable exceptions. This is where nuance comes in, and why the OP’s position is so wrong, yet so seductive to fair-minded people. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/55 "2017-08-28T19:04:54Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > The oppression of minorities by white supremacists has resonance in the US because it happened in an institutional and organized fashion. > > Lameass examples like Kaczynski or some fruitcake in Idaho 100 years ago have no more meaning than the Son of Sam murders. He doesn’t compare to “Son of Sam”, but he does compare to Dylan Roof, which is exactly the kind of example you asked for. Don’t blame me if you asked the wrong question. But there are lots of other examples from “modern America”. I just picked an obvious one. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/56 "2017-08-28T19:23:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He doesn’t compare to “Son of Sam”, but he does compare to Dylan Roof, which is exactly the kind of example you asked for. Don’t blame me if you asked the wrong question. But there are lots of other examples from “modern America”. Googling the Weather Underground, Black Liberation Army, FALN, Animal Liberation Front etc. would also be revelatory. But then we might hear complaints that those groups are not “modern” enough. “Yeah, but what about this week?” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/57 "2017-08-28T19:27:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He doesn’t compare to “Son of Sam”, but he does compare to Dylan Roof, which is exactly the kind of example you asked for. Don’t blame me if you asked the wrong question. But there are lots of other examples from “modern America”. I just picked an obvious one. But the point was that no one with the Unabomber’s views (or the Weather Underground, etc.) has ever controlled a government within the US. Lots of people with Dylan Roof’s views have. That’s a relevant distinction in the context of this debate, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/58 "2017-08-28T20:01:42Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > But the point was that no one with the Unabomber’s views (or the Weather Underground, etc.) has ever controlled a government within the US. Lots of people with Dylan Roof’s views have. That’s a relevant distinction in the context of this debate, IMO. Yes when you cherry pick which views you want to represent each group. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/59 "2017-08-28T20:12:50Z")
A video of Antifa protesters [heckling someone for simply holding up a sign that reads: “The right to openly discuss ideas must be defended.”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75-yTLxRkuU) ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/60 "2017-08-28T20:15:13Z")
I thought they were already in the same category: idiots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922.md?page=4)