# Okay, now it's time to put antifa in the same class as racists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2017, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922 "2017-08-28T10:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/61 "2017-08-28T20:27:14Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes when you cherry pick which views you want to represent each group. No u. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/62 "2017-08-28T20:30:07Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > But the point was that no one with the Unabomber’s views (or the Weather Underground, etc.) has ever controlled a government within the US. Lots of people with Dylan Roof’s views have. That’s a relevant distinction in the context of this debate, IMO. This is how it started: Someone objected to including “mass murder”, specifically, in the list of atrocities given by **Blank Slate** citing mass murder from the 19th century, to which he objected with a reply of: “Gimme a Dylann Roof or Timothy McVeigh example in modern America.” Those guys are mass murderers with right wing views. I gave him an example of a mass murderer with political views similar to Antifa. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/63 "2017-08-28T20:36:24Z")
Maybe we are just reading **Blank Slate** ’s point differently. I was focused on the part of Blank Slate’s post saying, “The oppression of minorities by white supremacists has resonance in the US because it happened in an institutional and organized fashion.” ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/64 "2017-08-28T20:39:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > A video of Antifa protesters [heckling someone for simply holding up a sign that reads: “The right to openly discuss ideas must be defended.”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75-yTLxRkuU) Guessing that that video is from Britain, from the accents? I can’t tell from the context why this lone free speech advocate is getting heckled. His message, context-free, is inoffensive. Is he being heckled simply for taking a free-speech position? Is there something more going on? I can’t tell, from the video, but maybe more observant observers can… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/65 "2017-08-28T20:42:29Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Maybe we are just reading **Blank Slate** ’s point differently. > > I was focused on the part of Blank Slate’s post saying, “The oppression of minorities by white supremacists has resonance in the US because it happened in an institutional and organized fashion.” But that was after I answered his question and he got all agitated about my answer. Like I said, it’s not my fault if he asked the wrong question. Further, if I put these three folks out there in a three about today’s fringe politics, which one doesn’t belong: Dylan Roof Ted Kaczynski (aka, Unibomber) David Berkowitz (aka, Son of Sam) ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/66 "2017-08-28T20:44:17Z")
My sister was always outraged when I didn’t even touch her. My finger clearly had at least an inch gap from her face and I clearly communicated that I wasn’t touching her over and over again! ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/67 "2017-08-28T20:50:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But that was after I answered his question and he got all agitated about my answer. Like I said, it’s not my fault if he asked the wrong question. Further, if I put these three folks out there in a three about today’s fringe politics, which one doesn’t belong: > > Dylan Roof > Ted Kaczynski (aka, Unibomber) > David Berkowitz (aka, Son of Sam) I’d totally argue that Dylann [sic, it’s apparently how he spells it] Roof doesn’t belong, because he’s the only one who’s even arguably part of “today’s fringe politics.” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/68 "2017-08-28T21:03:51Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > These Black Bloc are assholes. Throw the book at anyone inciting violence. They do not speak for me and I disavow their methods. This. They go for the sole purpose of starting a riot. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/69 "2017-08-28T21:07:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes when you cherry pick which views you want to represent each group. Totally curious about your non-cherry-picked take on the questions at hand. Are most of us on both sides “statists?” “Demotists?” And how do you, an as-I-understand-it pretty-radical-libertarian, feel about the conflict between full-on anarchists and full-on Nazis, when they’re brawling in the streets? Which side are you ON? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/70 "2017-08-28T21:21:07Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > Guessing that that video is from Britain, from the accents? Yeah definitely, London most likely. No idea about the context though. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/71 "2017-08-28T23:27:21Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > There’s been some false-flagging – for example: [Is This 'Antifa Manual' Real? | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/is-this-antifa-manual-real/) Real cute. Sort of like an older and more famous false flag “book”, “the Protocols of the Elders of Zion” or "The Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion " A phony book, written as a false flag “proof” of _make believe bad people planning make believe bad things._ ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/72 "2017-08-29T00:00:12Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Antifa are associated with political violence. That’s why we abhor them. But their stated purpose and history is to oppose fascism. It’s right there in the name. I know you know this, so to intentionally suggest they’re associated with fascism is… odd. And North Korea is the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. They must be a representative democracy. It’s right in their name after all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/73 "2017-08-29T00:01:34Z")
I think it’s safe to say that Antifa’s definition of “fascist” goes a bit beyond Mussolini. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/74 "2017-08-29T00:06:48Z")
I’ll tell you a true story about “false-flag” operations. Back in '04 Michigan had an anti-gay marriage initiative on the ballot. (Republicans in many states got these on the ballots as a way of boosting turnout which, they figured, would help them across the board.) I got a robo-call, supposedly from the Michigan Democratic Party, urging a “NO” vote I don’t remember the rest of the verbiage, but it was calculated to alienate “swing” voters. But they made one mistake. The voice used the line: “Fairness is a major Democrat value.” NO actual Democrat would say that, they’d say “Democratic”. I knew the call was fake and a deliberate deception. So, yeah, this stuff happens. I haven’t been a virgin for some time and I wouldn’t ever say that there aren’t elements of my own party that could do something like this, either. But the frequency with which righties make the false-flag accusation tells me something about how their thought processes work and my dad taught me that those who mistrust most should be trusted least. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/75 "2017-08-29T00:16:47Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > But they made one mistake. The voice used the line: “Fairness is a major Democrat value.” NO actual Democrat would say that, they’d say “Democratic”. I knew the call was fake and a deliberate deception. Just a few Google results. [Marshall County Democrat Party](https://www.facebook.com/marshallcountydemocratparty/) [Delaware Democrat Values](http://nicolepoore.com/delaware-democrat-values/) …tents set with information to promote [our democrat values](http://my.democrats.org/page/event/detail/4v8xf) and our presidential primary candidates. Ms. Debbie Lange was a host of that program, and the inspiration in beginning again to promote [our Democrat values](http://nevadacountydemocrats.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/NCDCCNewsletter-August-2016.pdf) over the airways. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/76 "2017-08-29T00:46:54Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > When the anarchists and “antifa” have a history of consisting of slavery, mass murder, lynchings, subjugation and terror, then they can be put in the same category as nazis and racists. Until then, they are just garden variety street thugs. > > Trump’s moronic false equivalence only resonates with the wilfully ignorant. > [@adaher](#): > > They are associated with regimes and ideologies that enslaved whole peoples and committed mass murder on a scale that dwarfs anything in human history. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Antifa are associated with political violence. That’s why we abhor them. But their stated purpose and history is to oppose fascism. It’s right there in the name. I know you know this, so to intentionally suggest they’re associated with fascism is… odd. **Adaher** is talking about communism. A lot of the Antifa people are Marxists. Communism has killed more people by far than fascism or any other ideology. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/77 "2017-08-29T00:55:24Z")
Nevertheless, the calls WERE fake. > **[October 2004 – The Blog That Goes Ping](http://goesping.org/archives/2004/10/)** Perhaps I should say no TRUE Democrat would say that!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/78 "2017-08-29T02:03:34Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Antifa are associated with political violence. That’s why we abhor them. But their stated purpose and history is to oppose fascism. It’s right there in the name. I know you know this, so to intentionally suggest they’re associated with fascism is… odd. No, that’s not what they stood and stand for, it’s an anti-capitalistic, pro-communist organization with a revolutionary agenda: [“The organization was initially part of the Soviet Union’s front operations to bring about communist dictatorship in Germany, and it worked to label all rival parties as “fascist.”” The 2016 annual report by Germany’s domestic intelligence service, the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV), notes the same point: From the viewpoint of the “left-wing extremist,” the label of “fascism” as pushed by Antifa often does not refer to actual fascism, but is merely a label assigned to “capitalism.” … They argue that the capitalist state produces fascism, or at least tolerates it. Therefore, anti-fascism is directed not only against actual or supposed right-wing extremists, but also always against the state and its representatives, in particular members of the security authorities,” it states.]([http://archive.is/DfJ7Z#selection-1895.0-1905.268](http://archive.is/DfJ7Z#selection-1895.0-1905.268)) And how did that work out in pre-Nazi Germany? [However, the violence instigated by Antifaschistische Aktion largely had an opposite effect. The ongoing tactics of violence and intimidation of all rival systems under the Antifa movement, along with its violent ideology, drove many people toward fascism. “The Communists’ violent revolutionary rhetoric, promising the destruction of capitalism and the creation of a Soviet Germany, terrified the country’s middle class, who knew only too well what had happened to their counterparts in Russia after 1918,” writes Richard J. Evans in “The Third Reich in Power.” “Appalled at the failure of the government to solve the crisis, and frightened into desperation by the rise of the Communists,” he states, “they began to leave the squabbling little factions of the conventional political right and gravitate towards the Nazis instead.”](http://archive.is/DfJ7Z#selection-1895.0-1905.268) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/79 "2017-08-29T02:47:37Z")
I agree that those who use militarized violence are very bad, and I stand against them as well. I can understand a small bit of violence (shoving, hitting) when tempers are high, even though I don’t condone it. But this is beyond that. It is bad. That said, I don’t think it fits to lump them in with racists. Those Nazis that did this were horrible, too. But their underlying ideology is worse, I think. Basically, they have racism on top of all the other bad things these Black Block or whatever people had. So they still are at least somewhat better. But I still completely condemn them. Maybe such tactics might be appropriate in an actual fascist dictatorship, as a form of revolution. But were aren’t there yet. Still, I wholeheartedly condemn those who came with the full intent of wanton violence. I condemn those who come with weapons and the intent to start shit. The side you are on doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922/80 "2017-08-29T07:43:12Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > …How did that play out in the 1960s? There were lots of acquittals of white supremacists in the South. Were there acquittals of leftist violence as well? About like you might expect. Got to court, and the criminal coddling judges weren’t working that day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-its-time-to-put-antifa-in-the-same-class-as-racists/794922.md?page=5)