# okay. Now you disgust me Madonna. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861 "2006-10-25T17:33:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/61 "2006-10-25T21:54:57Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I judge her only on her own actions and words. [/QUOTE] OK then, here are [her words](http://www.madonna.com/) > [@](#): > > 17 October 2006 > > My husband and I began the adoption process many months prior to our trip to Malawi. I did not wish to disclose my intentions to the world prior to the adoption happening as this is a private family matter. After learning that there were over one million orphans in Malawi, it was my wish to open up our home and help one child escape an extreme life of hardship, poverty and in many cases death, as well as expand out family. > > Nevertheless, we have gone about the adoption procedure according to the law like anyone else who adopts a child. Reports to the contrary are totally inaccurate. The procedure includes an l8 month evaluation period after which time we hope to make this adoption permanent. This was not a decision or commitment that my family or I take lightly. > > I am overwhelmed and inspired by my trip to Malawi and hope that it helps bring attention to how much more the world needs to do to help the children of Africa. > > My heartfelt thanks for all the good wishes I have received and I hope the press will allow my family some room for us to experience the joy we feel to have David home. > > Madonna Ritchie October 17, 2006 London, England Here’s what she was [saying about Africa](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CB0GaFrsnY) in July 2005. [Here are her actions](Madonna funds six orphanages through her Raising Malawi charity and is setting up an orphanage for 4,000 children in a village outside the capital, Lilongwe. ): > [@](#): > > Madonna funds six orphanages through her Raising Malawi charity and is setting up an orphanage for 4,000 children in a village outside the capital, Lilongwe. > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > she could adopt a whole orphanage full of children or none at all. It doesn’t matter to me…I just sincerely hope that she is doing it for the right reasons. Why the fuck do you care about the reasons she’s doing this? When my family adopted our black baby\*, we were also given a choice of baby by the Church of England Children’s Home. My parents just said “first available”, but they could have picked had they wished. \*Before it was fashionable!!!OMG!! Go us! ---
**Author:** ![Abby\_Emma\_Sasha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@Abby\_Emma\_Sasha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abby_Emma_Sasha)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/62 "2006-10-25T22:00:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Her son isn’t white, for starters. You’re looking for shit and the story doesn’t even stink. Her son IS white. His father is Guy Ritchie. Her daughter, Lourdes, is half Cuban. Her father is Carlos Leon ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/63 "2006-10-25T22:00:30Z")
**Shayna** your intensely hostile reactions are curious to say the least. It’s just a message board. Get out some. In general parents who adopt to “do good works” do a poorer job of it than those of us who honestly admit to adoption as serving our selfish desires to parent. I may have an incorrect impression of this particular parent and just been rubbed the wrong way by a statement out of context. But my kids don’t owe me for having sired them or adopting her and laying that message on your kid is unfair. Thinking of your adoptive child as less yours than your biological child, which is the impression I got, would not be a good sign. Me? I’ll go back to ignoring Madonna and her schtick the best I can. I don’t really care. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/64 "2006-10-25T22:03:26Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I have no problem being judged for anything I say on this board. My problem was with what was said about my parents, not what was said about me. [/QUOTE] Oh fercrissakes… I didn’t say any thing negative about your parents. I am, however, pretty damn annoyed that you refuse to see the correlation between your adoption and Madonna’s. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/65 "2006-10-25T22:04:49Z")
[QUOTE=Abby\_Emma\_Sasha] Her son IS white. His father is Guy Ritchie. Her daughter, Lourdes, is half Cuban. Her father is Carlos Leon [/QUOTE] Easy mistake. I forgot which kid was older. It doesn’t matter. Whoever played the race card was talking out of his/her ass. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/66 "2006-10-25T22:28:17Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I have no problem being judged for anything I say on this board. My problem was with what was said about my parents, not what was said about me. [/QUOTE] What you’ve said on this board has been pretty critical of someone’s family, with very little justification that I can see. If you think it’s appropriate to pass judgement on someone’s family when you don’t have all the details of their family life, you have no standing to complain when someone passes judgement on _your_ family under the same circumstances. > [@](#): > > Look, Madonna never has hidden her desire to put herself out there. I think that if you are a celebrity that is doing something of questionable ethics, you have to expect that people will question it. As near as I can tell, you have no reason to think that she’s doing anything ethically questionable, except that she happens to be a celebrity who (I gather) has engaged in other, non-child-rearing activities you find objectionable. Unless you’ve got specific evidence that she only adopted this kid to further her own celebrity, it strikes me as being in extremely bad taste to assume that’s why she adopted. The fact that she has done other things to put herself in the public eye, things unconnected with her being a parent, is not sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/67 "2006-10-25T22:32:49Z")
I think there’s just way too many opinions about what celebrities ought not to do. They should shut up and sing, they should stop adopting poor kids, yadda yadda yadda. My idea is this: focus on what you ought and ought not to do yourself, and let Madonna make her own decisions. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/68 "2006-10-25T23:12:05Z")
Sorry but celebs can’t have it both ways. They chose to put themselves in the public eye. She in particular chose to make this a public event. She released statements and went on Oprah. If you go public and accept the adulation of Oprah, then you have no choice but to live with the fact that you also annoy others. Adoption is of meaning to some of us. How someone presents it from their bully pulpit of celebrityhood is a just subject for us to comment on. **Sarafeena** is right. To the degree that she is public here, in The Pit, insulting her (or me), is fair game. Her parents are not. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/69 "2006-10-25T23:14:49Z")
Nobody suggested you don’t have the legal right to judge Madonna. I just think you’re a twit for doing so, is all. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/70 "2006-10-25T23:36:27Z")
Just out of curiosity, what did I post that you interpreted as discussing the legality of commenting on celebrity behavior? And, FWIW, my interest is not Madonna. My interest is adoption and how it is presented by those in power to influence public perception. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/71 "2006-10-26T00:16:05Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] Here are her actions:Why the fuck do you care about the reasons she’s doing this? [/QUOTE] Because IF she is doing it for publicity, then I think that is a pretty deplorable thing to do to another human being. > [@](#): > > When my family adopted our black baby\*, we were also given a choice of baby by the Church of England Children’s Home. My parents just said “first available”, but they could have picked had they wished. And I admire them for doing it the way they did. > [@](#): > > \*Before it was fashionable!!!OMG!! Go us! You have a point…it DOES seem to be fashionable now, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/72 "2006-10-26T00:17:25Z")
You said that your critique of celebrities was something celebrities just have to live with, as if anyone suggested that celebrities ought not to be criticized. I am not saying that you shouldn’t criticize celebrities, I am just saying your judgments here are a ill-informed and poorly articulated. For example, you say “adoption means something to some of us,” assuming that adoption means nothing to Madonna despite the fact that she’s adopted children and promotes adoption on national television. My advice is to do something besides gripe to a bunch of know-it-alls on the Internet. Like adopt a child yourself. If you’ve already done so, then go spend time with that child. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/73 "2006-10-26T00:18:31Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Oh fercrissakes… I didn’t say any thing negative about your parents. I am, however, pretty damn annoyed that you refuse to see the correlation between your adoption and Madonna’s. [/QUOTE] Let’s see, you questioned their ethics and you implied that they would have chosen a particular baby based on…what, again? Explain to me why you believe they might have found one infant preferable to another? They are both adoptions…I guess that’s a correlation. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/74 "2006-10-26T00:21:03Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Let’s see, you questioned their ethics… [/QUOTE] Actually, I think **Kalhoun** ’s point was that there would be nothing unethical about such an action. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/75 "2006-10-26T00:26:57Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] What you’ve said on this board has been pretty critical of someone’s family, with very little justification that I can see. If you think it’s appropriate to pass judgement on someone’s family when you don’t have all the details of their family life, you have no standing to complain when someone passes judgement on _your_ family under the same circumstances. [/QUOTE] I am in no way critical of Madonna’s family. I am critical (not even critical, just skeptical) of Madonna. I am not passing judgement, I am speculating that there might be something bigger at work. > [@](#): > > As near as I can tell, you have no reason to think that she’s doing anything ethically questionable, except that she happens to be a celebrity who (I gather) has engaged in other, non-child-rearing activities you find objectionable. Unless you’ve got specific evidence that she only adopted this kid to further her own celebrity, it strikes me as being in extremely bad taste to assume that’s why she adopted. The fact that she has done other things to put herself in the public eye, things unconnected with her being a parent, is not sufficient. When did I ever say that Madonna has engaged in activities I find objectionable? Would you please find the post where I even implied that? In fact, I believe the only thing I have said about her is that her charitable works are admirable. What I am suggesting that when people go on Oprah to talk about something they claim is a private family matter, maybe they are being a touch disingenuous about that. I don’t think she is doing it to further her own celebrity. I do think it MAY have something to do with bringing attention to the problems in his home country, and I think that is of questionable ethics. I am not “assuming” this is why she did it, but I do have questions in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/76 "2006-10-26T00:28:12Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Actually, I think **Kalhoun** ’s point was that there would be nothing unethical about such an action. [/QUOTE] There is nothing unethical about buying your way to the front of a waiting list for an adoption? Then she has some funny ideas about ethics, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/77 "2006-10-26T01:10:18Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] **Shayna** your intensely hostile reactions are curious to say the least. It’s just a message board. Get out some. In general parents who adopt to “do good works” do a poorer job of it than those of us who honestly admit to adoption as serving our selfish desires to parent. I may have an incorrect impression of this particular parent and just been rubbed the wrong way by a statement out of context. But my kids don’t owe me for having sired them or adopting her and laying that message on your kid is unfair. Thinking of your adoptive child as less yours than your biological child, which is the impression I got, would not be a good sign. [/QUOTE] That’s the thing that bothers me…what you say about doing good works. I don’t know, either, if Madonna’s words really reflect her feelings on the matter, but the attitude seems weird to me, and not at all what I have heard so many other adoptive parents say. The attitude typically is “we are so lucky,” not “the child is so lucky.” I love that adoption is being promoted, but I just wonder if the right message is being sent about the ultimate meaning of adoption. The statement she makes about wanting to go “to a third world country and giving a life to a child who might not have had one…” I think it DOES set this kid up to have to feel like Madonna was his “savior”, and I am not sure that is healthy. > [@](#): > > Me? I’ll go back to ignoring Madonna and her schtick the best I can. I don’t really care. I’m with you there, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/78 "2006-10-26T01:58:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I am in no way critical of Madonna’s family. I am critical (not even critical, just skeptical) of Madonna. I am not passing judgement, I am speculating that there might be something bigger at work. [/quote] On what do you base your speculation? Why are you skeptical about Madonna’s adoption in a way you would not be similarly skeptical about anyone else’s adoption? (Assuming, of course, that you don’t always look for ulterior motives when someone adopts.) > [@](#): > > When did I ever say that Madonna has engaged in activities I find objectionable? Would you please find the post where I even implied that? In fact, I believe the only thing I have said about her is that her charitable works are admirable. You seem to have quite a grudge against her, from your reactions in this thread. Also, I know you’re a conservative Catholic, and Madonna has a reputation for using Catholic imagery in ways that many Catholics felt was inappropriate. I figured there was a connection between the two. Otherwise, I’m at a loss to explain your attitude towards her, which is very hostile to someone over what to all appearances is a selfless act. > [@](#): > > What I am suggesting that when people go on Oprah to talk about something they claim is a private family matter, maybe they are being a touch disingenuous about that. When have you ever known a new parent who did not want to talk about their baby? Most people have to settle for the office water cooler. Madonna has Oprah. Same deal, different scale. > [@](#): > > I don’t think she is doing it to further her own celebrity. I do think it MAY have something to do with bringing attention to the problems in his home country, and I think that is of questionable ethics. So, she wants to bring attention to a desperatly impoverished nation. That’s unethical how, exactly? > [@](#): > > I am not “assuming” this is why she did it, but I do have questions in my mind. That’s a pretty fine distinction you’ve got there. Would it make you any less insulted if I said I didn’t _assume_ your parents would have cut corners if it meant they could have gotten you home sooner, but that I have “questions” in my mind? > [@](#): > > There is nothing unethical about buying your way to the front of a waiting list for an adoption? Then she has some funny ideas about ethics, IMO. Where did she say anything about buying their way to the front? She said they would have cut corners if they could have. She didn’t say anything about bribery. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/79 "2006-10-26T02:08:11Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] On what do you base your speculation? Why are you skeptical about Madonna’s adoption in a way you would not be similarly skeptical about anyone else’s adoption? (Assuming, of course, that you don’t always look for ulterior motives when someone adopts.) [/QUOTE] Seriously, it was that quote about going to a third world country and giving a child a life who wouldn’t otherwise have one. This makes me skeptical about her motivations. Now, you may disagree with me as to whether or not this is an acceptable motivation, but don’t you think that implies that she is doing it as some kind of symbolic gesture? > [@](#): > > You seem to have quite a grudge against her, from your reactions in this thread. Also, I know you’re a conservative Catholic, and Madonna has a reputation for using Catholic imagery in ways that many Catholics felt was inappropriate. I figured there was a connection between the two. Otherwise, I’m at a loss to explain your attitude towards her, which is very hostile to someone over what to all appearances is a selfless act. I don’t have a hostile attitude towards her. Some of her remarks about this one issue rubbed me the wrong way. You are making assumptions that simply aren’t true. > [@](#): > > When have you ever known a new parent who did not want to talk about their baby? Most people have to settle for the office water cooler. Madonna has Oprah. Same deal, different scale. I’m sure Madonna has plenty of friends she could talk to…she doesn’t need Oprah’s TV cameras. > [@](#): > > So, she wants to bring attention to a desperatly impoverished nation. That’s unethical how, exactly? Unethical to use the emotions of another person to do so. IF that is what she is doing. > [@](#): > > That’s a pretty fine distinction you’ve got there. Would it make you any less insulted if I said I didn’t _assume_ your parents would have cut corners if it meant they could have gotten you home sooner, but that I have “questions” in my mind? I formed my questions based on Madonna’s own words. Have you talked to my parents? > [@](#): > > Where did she say anything about buying their way to the front? She said they would have cut corners if they could have. She didn’t say anything about bribery. So what kind of corners might those have been, then? And what kind of corners are OK to be cut, and what aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/80 "2006-10-26T02:29:37Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Seriously, it was that quote about going to a third world country and giving a child a life who wouldn’t otherwise have one. This makes me skeptical about her motivations. Now, you may disagree with me as to whether or not this is an acceptable motivation, but don’t you think that implies that she is doing it as some kind of symbolic gesture? [/quote] I can see that, I guess, but that doesn’t preclude _other_ motivations for adopting the child. I doubt anyone wants to be a parent just for one specific reason. There’s usually a range of motivations, not all of them perfectly noble. > [@](#): > > I don’t have a hostile attitude towards her. Some of her remarks about this one issue rubbed me the wrong way. You are making assumptions that simply aren’t true. You seem to be going out of your way to find the least favorable interpretation of what ought to be a laudable act. Comes off as very hostile. Not **Shayna** -hostile, but it sure looks like you’ve got a personal axe to grind here. > [@](#): > > I’m sure Madonna has plenty of friends she could talk to…she doesn’t need Oprah’s TV cameras. You’ve never had a complete stranger talk to you about their new baby? I think most parents would love to go on Opera to talk about their kid, they just can’t get the booking. > [@](#): > > Unethical to use the emotions of another person to do so. IF that is what she is doing. I don’t follow. > [@](#): > > I formed my questions based on Madonna’s own words. Have you talked to my parents? Yes. Okay, not really, but how freaky would it be if I had? Seriously, though, what you’re basing your judgements on is incredibly slight. Slight enough that the difference between drawing conclusions about Madonna’s motivations and drawing conclusions about your parent’s motivations is negligible. You don’t know anything about how Madonna feels towards this kid, or how she plans to raise him. You’ve got a couple of ambiguously worded statements from a morning talk show. I’ve seen a few posts from you where you talk about your parents, and how you were adopted. Frankly, I think I’ve got _more_ information to draw conclusions from than you do. > [@](#): > > So what kind of corners might those have been, then? Maybe the person in charge of the adoption is in your dad’s Kiwani’s club. > [@](#): > > And what kind of corners are OK to be cut, and what aren’t? The most important thing is, a kid goes to a home with loving parents. Your folks already knew they were that sort of parent. If it happens that the person in charge of placing the kid _also_ knows this about your parents, I wouldn’t see a problem with circumventing some of the regulations needed to insure the parents will treat the kid right. Incidentally, have you ever read Dan Savage’s book, _The Kid_, about how he and his boyfriend adopted a kid in Oregon under an open adoption? I mention it because of the earlier exchange about choosing a baby. In open adoptions, you don’t choose the kid, but you do choose the birth mother. I mention this just to highlight that even in the US, how Madonna ended up with her new baby is not totally unheard of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861.md?page=5)