# okay. Now you disgust me Madonna. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861 "2006-10-25T17:33:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/81 "2006-10-26T03:06:43Z")
[QUOTE=Walter Windchill] You said that your critique of celebrities was something celebrities just have to live with, as if anyone suggested that celebrities ought not to be criticized. I am not saying that you shouldn’t criticize celebrities, I am just saying your judgments here are a ill-informed and poorly articulated. For example, you say “adoption means something to some of us,” assuming that adoption means nothing to Madonna despite the fact that she’s adopted children and promotes adoption on national television. My advice is to do something besides gripe to a bunch of know-it-alls on the Internet. Like adopt a child yourself. If you’ve already done so, then go spend time with that child. [/QUOTE] You really don’t spend much effort reading or comprehending people’s posts dude. I’ve already clearly stated that I am the parent of both biological children and an internationally adopted child. The subject is thus an issue of importance to me. I am also a pediatrician with a large population of international adoptees in my practice. I know a lot of adoptive parents and spend a lot of time discussing these issues. Your inference that I am implying something about what it may or may not mean to someone else is your problem, not an issue of my articulation. I also spend much time with all my children thank you very much. I will clarify my point yet again for you. My issue is with anyone who portrays their adoption as a generous act of charity for some poor unfortunate soul. That she chooses to do so in a very public manner puts her up for public ridicule just as fairly as it sets her for Oprah to praise her publically. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/82 "2006-10-26T03:57:54Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] You really don’t spend much effort reading or comprehending people’s posts dude. I’ve already clearly stated that I am the parent of both biological children and an internationally adopted child. The subject is thus an issue of importance to me. I am also a pediatrician with a large population of international adoptees in my practice. I know a lot of adoptive parents and spend a lot of time discussing these issues. Your inference that I am implying something about what it may or may not mean to someone else is your problem, not an issue of my articulation. I also spend much time with all my children thank you very much. [/quote] None of which supports your thesis that Madonna doesn’t care about adoption. > [@](#): > > I will clarify my point yet again for you. My issue is with anyone who portrays their adoption as a generous act of charity for some poor unfortunate soul. That she chooses to do so in a very public manner puts her up for public ridicule just as fairly as it sets her for Oprah to praise her publically. I didn’t see the show, but I’m going to go out on a limb that you’re misrepesenting here. And which STILL doesn’t support your position that she doesn’t care about adoption. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/83 "2006-10-26T04:43:51Z")
Uh where exactly did you get that such was my “thesis”? I that suggest you actually read my postings in this thread. I have no idea whether Madonna “cares about adoption”. I have clearly expressed my acknowledgement of the possiblity that I am getting the wrong impression. But I will state clearly again now that the way she phrased things and the manner in which she is going on Oprah and publicizing this “personal family matter” rubs many of us who have been involved with adoptions the wrong way. None of the other goofy crap she has done even has gotten me to click on the link to find out more. This annoys. It is interesting after all that there are two people posting on this thread who acknowledge personal ties to adoption and both react in a similar vein; _most_ of us involved with adoptions have a strong distaste for those who tell us “how lucky” our adopted kids are, even though we accept that they may be well intended. And those who imply how lucky their poor adopted child is, well they disgust many of us. And then there are those who feel the need to defend a celebrity against attacks by “ill informed” “fucking idiots.” Now which set seems more likely to be ill-informed about issues related to adoption? ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/84 "2006-10-26T05:30:12Z")
**Sarahfeena** , you are a fucking twit. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/85 "2006-10-26T09:32:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Because IF she is doing it for publicity, then I think that is a pretty deplorable thing to do to another human being. And I admire them for doing it the way they did. You have a point…it DOES seem to be fashionable now, doesn’t it? [/QUOTE] And IF monkeys fly out of my butt, I might be the second coming of christ! We’re not talking about “ifs” here. You outright accused her of adopting for fashion and it’s a shitty thing to say…particularly by an adoptee. We could just as easily say, “If Sarafeena’s parents adopted because they thought it would get them to heaven faster, it’s a pretty deplorable thing to do to another human being.” What if your parents DID have a choice (and make no mistake…they _did_)? Would they have chosen the child who had been ill his entire life? Would they have chosen the third-world kid? Did they even look at adopting an older child? I’m sure there were other kids…older children who needed homes…yet they CHOSE an _infant_. Sarafeena, it’s not _fashionable_ to adopt from disease- and war-torn countries. It’s necessary because they are in the most need. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/86 "2006-10-26T09:36:47Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Let’s see, you questioned their ethics and you implied that they would have chosen a particular baby based on…what, again? Explain to me why you believe they might have found one infant preferable to another? They are both adoptions…I guess that’s a correlation. [/QUOTE] Ahhhh yes…now I’m certain that they CHOSE. An infant. You were probably healthy, too…right? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/87 "2006-10-26T09:39:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] There is nothing unethical about buying your way to the front of a waiting list for an adoption? Then she has some funny ideas about ethics, IMO. [/QUOTE] Look…I never said anything about buying an infant. Now you’re accusing _her_ of buying the child? Have you lost your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/88 "2006-10-26T09:41:03Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Actually, I think **Kalhoun** ’s point was that there would be nothing unethical about such an action. [/QUOTE] Thank you! I thought it was apparent, but evidently it has to be spelled out to some. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/89 "2006-10-26T09:47:37Z")
Where did Madonna “buy her way to the front of the adoption line?” ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/90 "2006-10-26T09:53:23Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] You really don’t spend much effort reading or comprehending people’s posts dude. I’ve already clearly stated that I am the parent of both biological children and an internationally adopted child. The subject is thus an issue of importance to me. I am also a pediatrician with a large population of international adoptees in my practice. I know a lot of adoptive parents and spend a lot of time discussing these issues. Your inference that I am implying something about what it may or may not mean to someone else is your problem, not an issue of my articulation. I also spend much time with all my children thank you very much. I will clarify my point yet again for you. My issue is with anyone who portrays their adoption as a generous act of charity for some poor unfortunate soul. That she chooses to do so in a very public manner puts her up for public ridicule just as fairly as it sets her for Oprah to praise her publically. [/QUOTE] You forget the part about her saying that she and her husband “fell in love” with this particular kid. Or is love not a good enough reason for you, either? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/91 "2006-10-26T09:58:19Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] I have no idea whether Madonna “cares about adoption”. I have clearly expressed my acknowledgement of the possiblity that I am getting the wrong impression. But I will state clearly again now that the way she phrased things and the manner in which she is going on Oprah and publicizing this “personal family matter” rubs many of us who have been involved with adoptions the wrong way. None of the other goofy crap she has done even has gotten me to click on the link to find out more. This annoys. [/quote] She wasn’t going to go on Oprah’s show at all when she decided to adopt. She was acting in self-defense. > [@](#): > > It is interesting after all that there are two people posting on this thread who acknowledge personal ties to adoption and both react in a similar vein; _most_ of us involved with adoptions have a strong distaste for those who tell us “how lucky” our adopted kids are, even though we accept that they may be well intended. And those who imply how lucky their poor adopted child is, well they disgust many of us. Please show me where Madonna said that the child is lucky and she is not…show me where the fact that she realizes the child IS lucky is the only factor in her decision to adopt. ---
**Author:** ![shizaru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@shizaru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shizaru)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/92 "2006-10-26T10:17:10Z")
Man, the old saying is right. \*\*“_No Good Deed Goes Unpunished_.” \*\* It doesn’t seem to me that Madonna did anything wrong, yet people are ripping into her for adopting a kid from a crappy country? A former coworker of mine and his wife adopted an asian kid from some craphole (I can’t remember where). This guy was a bit of a jackass at times, but he and his wife love that kid to death. I suppose if he were rich and famous people would be ripping into him. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/93 "2006-10-26T11:56:09Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] Uh where exactly did you get that such was my “thesis”? I that suggest you actually read my postings in this thread. I have no idea whether Madonna “cares about adoption”. I have clearly expressed my acknowledgement of the possiblity that I am getting the wrong impression. But I will state clearly again now that the way she phrased things and the manner in which she is going on Oprah and publicizing this “personal family matter” rubs many of us who have been involved with adoptions the wrong way. None of the other goofy crap she has done even has gotten me to click on the link to find out more. This annoys. It is interesting after all that there are two people posting on this thread who acknowledge personal ties to adoption and both react in a similar vein; _most_ of us involved with adoptions have a strong distaste for those who tell us “how lucky” our adopted kids are, even though we accept that they may be well intended. And those who imply how lucky their poor adopted child is, well they disgust many of us. And then there are those who feel the need to defend a celebrity against attacks by “ill informed” “fucking idiots.” Now which set seems more likely to be ill-informed about issues related to adoption? [/QUOTE] Whatever your expertise on “adoption,” you’ve no exclusive rights to this mantle of being The One Who Knows And Cares About Adoption, and those things don’t support any of your accusations of what Madonna’s done or what you think she’s done. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/94 "2006-10-26T12:34:24Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] I can see that, I guess, but that doesn’t preclude _other_ motivations for adopting the child. I doubt anyone wants to be a parent just for one specific reason. There’s usually a range of motivations, not all of them perfectly noble. [/QUOTE] Yes, and hopefully she does. ALL I said was that one or two things she has said seemed distasteful to me. Sheesh > [@](#): > > You seem to be going out of your way to find the least favorable interpretation of what ought to be a laudable act. Comes off as very hostile. Not **Shayna** -hostile, but it sure looks like you’ve got a personal axe to grind here. Again, not so. You can read in what you want…all I can say is that you have no evidence other than inference from ONE thing I have said about her in my history of posting here. I actually have always kind of liked her (liked her A LOT when I was younger, and have a bunch of her albums). I am not crazy about the type of music she has been making lately, but I think she is OK. > [@](#): > > You’ve never had a complete stranger talk to you about their new baby? I think most parents would love to go on Opera to talk about their kid, they just can’t get the booking. But IF I had already stated that it was a “private family matter” and wanted the press to stay out of it, then I wouldn’t. > [@](#): > > I don’t follow. **IF** someone is using another person to further their own agenda for something unrelated to that child, then I believe that is unethical. > [@](#): > > Yes. > Okay, not really, but how freaky would it be if I had? 🙂 > [@](#): > > Seriously, though, what you’re basing your judgements on is incredibly slight. Slight enough that the difference between drawing conclusions about Madonna’s motivations and drawing conclusions about your parent’s motivations is negligible. You don’t know anything about how Madonna feels towards this kid, or how she plans to raise him. You’ve got a couple of ambiguously worded statements from a morning talk show. I’ve seen a few posts from you where you talk about your parents, and how you were adopted. Frankly, I think I’ve got _more_ information to draw conclusions from than you do. Frankly, my post was overblown. Did you read my first post? All it really said was that it seems to me like he’s being used as a poster child for orphans in Africa, and I find that distasteful. The fact that someone jumped in immediately and called ME a fucking idiot because I haven’t followed Madonna’s EVERY move since 1985 actually kind of tells me that someone here has a much bigger axe to grind with me than I ever could with Madonna over this situation. Then someone else jumped in and decided to drag my parents into it, and this rather angry thread is the result of all that. > [@](#): > > Maybe the person in charge of the adoption is in your dad’s Kiwani’s club. See, I think that would be unethical, if it would move someone up in line above someone else. > [@](#): > > The most important thing is, a kid goes to a home with loving parents. Your folks already knew they were that sort of parent. If it happens that the person in charge of placing the kid _also_ knows this about your parents, I wouldn’t see a problem with circumventing some of the regulations needed to insure the parents will treat the kid right. Absolutely that is the most important thing. But a lot of people would believe that circumventing existing regulations and laws in such a situation would be wrong, including me. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, have you ever read Dan Savage’s book, _The Kid_, about how he and his boyfriend adopted a kid in Oregon under an open adoption? I mention it because of the earlier exchange about choosing a baby. In open adoptions, you don’t choose the kid, but you do choose the birth mother. I mention this just to highlight that even in the US, how Madonna ended up with her new baby is not totally unheard of. Yes, that was a great book. The difference is that, in open adoption, usually the parents are picking YOU, the adoptive family, not so much the other way around (yes, if you are lucky, you have some choice, but most people don’t). In Dan’s case, the mother picked them (which they were very relieved about, if I recall correctly, because they were afraid no one would want gay parents for their child). Even if you do get to choose the parents, I think that’s a far different thing from choosing the actual child. That adoption was arranged before the baby was born. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/95 "2006-10-26T12:39:51Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] And IF monkeys fly out of my butt, I might be the second coming of christ! We’re not talking about “ifs” here. You outright accused her of adopting for fashion and it’s a shitty thing to say…particularly by an adoptee. We could just as easily say, “If Sarafeena’s parents adopted because they thought it would get them to heaven faster, it’s a pretty deplorable thing to do to another human being.” [/QUOTE] And it would have been! I certainly hope that’s not why they did it. > [@](#): > > What if your parents DID have a choice (and make no mistake…they _did_)? Would they have chosen the child who had been ill his entire life? Would they have chosen the third-world kid? Did they even look at adopting an older child? I’m sure there were other kids…older children who needed homes…yet they CHOSE an _infant_. That is true. This has nothing to do with what I said. What I said is that the idea that you go to an orphanage, scan the children, and point to the one you want is not the best way to go about it. They used to do that in orphanages here, but the practice is no longer considered the best way to go about it, since children know they are being passed over. > [@](#): > > Sarafeena, it’s not _fashionable_ to adopt from disease- and war-torn countries. It’s necessary because they are in the most need. It can’t be fashionable AND necessary? Will it still be necessary when it goes out of fashion? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/96 "2006-10-26T12:47:34Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Look…I never said anything about buying an infant. Now you’re accusing _her_ of buying the child? Have you lost your mind? [/QUOTE] No, I was questioning what you said about my parents. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/97 "2006-10-26T12:47:43Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] And it would have been! I certainly hope that’s not why they did it. That is true. This has nothing to do with what I said. What I said is that the idea that you go to an orphanage, scan the children, and point to the one you want is not the best way to go about it. They used to do that in orphanages here, but the practice is no longer considered the best way to go about it, since children know they are being passed over. It can’t be fashionable AND necessary? Will it still be necessary when it goes out of fashion? [/QUOTE] Typical tap-dancing to avoid the fact that you’re doing exactly what you’re so outraged about with regard to people second-guessing motivation. Kids are “shopped” for adoption all the time. You’ve never heard of adoption fairs? Puhleeze. You are deluded about your parents’ altruism. You were chosen because you were a healthy infant. If your parents were willing to take the first available child, you’d be a sick 14-year-old male black child with a history of violence. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/98 "2006-10-26T12:48:44Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Thank you! I thought it was apparent, but evidently it has to be spelled out to some. [/QUOTE] I have a strong grasp of adoption ethics. Whatever you think is ok in some circumstances isn’t necessarily relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/99 "2006-10-26T13:01:42Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Typical tap-dancing to avoid the fact that you’re doing exactly what you’re so outraged about with regard to people second-guessing motivation. Kids are “shopped” for adoption all the time. You’ve never heard of adoption fairs? Puhleeze. You are deluded about your parents’ altruism. You were chosen because you were a healthy infant. If your parents were willing to take the first available child, you’d be a sick 14-year-old male black child with a history of violence. [/QUOTE] You have managed to miss the entire point. I NEVER said my parents were altruistic. They were not. They NEVER claimed to be, and I didn’t either. OF COURSE they wanted an infant…they did NOT adopt me to be altruistic or to rescue a child. They adopted me because they WANTED A BABY. This is wht DSeid was saying all along…that it usually is from a person’s own selfish motives that they adopt…NOT because they are doing a good deed. YOU were the one who started ascribing all kinds of other thoughts and motives to my parents. And, the problem I have is with letting the child KNOW that you did it as a charity case. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2006, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861/100 "2006-10-26T13:02:39Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I have a strong grasp of adoption ethics. Whatever you think is ok in some circumstances isn’t necessarily relevant. [/QUOTE] Based on your posts, your parents are the only people allowed to adopt. I’d say you have little grasp of how the world works with respect to adoption. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-now-you-disgust-me-madonna/377861.md?page=6)