# "Okay" sign NOT? High School Year book pulled
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [May 17, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117 "2019-05-17T14:50:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/1 "2019-05-17T14:50:53Z")
[Background.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48293817)
> [@](#):
>
> The entire saga started out as an online joke - taking an innocent and widely-used gesture and pretending there was a sinister hidden meaning behind it, hoping to trick the media and left-leaning people into outrage.
>
> But the joke was so successful, and the gesture so widespread among the far-right and white nationalists, that many believe the OK sign is changing meaning.
>
> It was even used in court by the suspect in the Christchurch killings, after he killed 51 people after opening fire on two mosques - bringing it to international attention as a genuine white power symbol.
>
> It all began in 2017 on the infamous internet message boards 4Chan. Through its long and controversial lifespan, the site has been the source of many internet memes and jokes but also has a strong right-leaning political audience.
>
> The hoax planned on 4Chan was simple - to ridicule media by convincing reporters of a fake white power symbol. The preposterous reasoning to be given was that in a hand making the OK sign, the three straight fingers make a “W” shape, while the closed thumb and forefinger symbolise the letter “P”.
>
> It was wildly successful, and the popularity of the gesture used to mock left-leaning people or “troll” viewers exploded.
>
> In the two years since, however, its constant use by right-wing or extremist individuals has turned the hidden meaning into a genuine connotation. …
>
> … Around most of the world, the OK sign still means what it always has - that everything is fine.
>
> In some countries, however, the gesture is considered vulgar. It can also have other meanings - among young men, it is frequently used in the “circle game”, where making the sign below the waist and getting a friend to look at it entitles the prankster to thump said friend on the arm.
So the tradition hand sign for okay is now used by a few as a white nationalist signifier, and by most of the rest happily ignorant of that, as its usual meaning of “okay” and as part of a teen’s goofy game.
Eve before planned distribution of our community’s High School yearbook’s to the student’s, it is noted that a few of the photos have kids photographed presumably using the hand sign in its usual benign intent, ignorant of its recent hijack by the alt-right.
> [@email to parent](#):
>
> … Regardless of intent, the potential negative impact of this gesture has led us to decide that we cannot distribute the yearbook as is …
Seniors are not getting their yearbooks, not getting the tradition of wishing each other wishes in it, because of the possibility that some may take offense at something that there is no reason to believe was meant to offend and which does not have any offensive meaning to most, especially High Schoolers. (My High School senior at least was completely unaware of any negative meaning to the “okay” sign, as was I, and is a bit upset at not getting her yearbook.) Many kids put lots of work into the yearbook and its meaning is further magnified this year as the student who designed the cover had recently died in a car crash.
Should sensitivity to the possibility of offense go to this point?
Further context. Our community is considered quite liberal, is mixed both in SES and racially, and recently has controversies over whether or not it is adequately addressing racial equity and bias issues. (Focused on Black White and not paying much attention to other less populous minority groups’ issues.)
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### Author:  [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/2 "2019-05-17T14:58:01Z")
An extended middle finger doesn’t _really_ mean anything, either. Until people agree about it’s meaning, and it is used to express that meaning. Flip off the next traffic court judge you face, then explain that it doesn’t mean what he thinks it means.
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/3 "2019-05-17T15:08:30Z")
If they’re making a traditional up high OK sign like in the OK emoji, or the first picture in your linkI think folks are being overly sensitive.
If they’re making the upside down at the waist “secret symbol” style OK sign that the Christchurch killer used in your link, then no, you don’t get to argue that it’s just an OK sign.
The Swastika was a traditional symbol long before the Nazi’s co-opted it, but co-opt it they did, they ruined the symbol with their hatred. Other hate groups have ruined the upside down-at the waist OK symbol that some kids used for the “circle game”. So, find a new way to fool your friends into letting you punch them, because some shitheads have ruined the circle.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/4 "2019-05-17T15:17:47Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> If they’re making a traditional up high OK sign like in the OK emoji, or the first picture in your linkI think folks are being overly sensitive.
>
> If they’re making the upside down at the waist “secret symbol” style OK sign that the Christchurch killer used in your link, then no, you don’t get to argue that it’s just an OK sign.
>
> The Swastika was a traditional symbol long before the Nazi’s co-opted it, but co-opt it they did, they ruined the symbol with their hatred. Other hate groups have ruined the upside down-at the waist OK symbol that some kids used for the “circle game”. So, find a new way to fool your friends into letting you punch them, because some shitheads have ruined the circle.
I didn’t realize, until this post, that some people perceive the _location_ of the circle to be the difference between mundane “OK” meaning and sinister “White Power” meaning.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/5 "2019-05-17T15:21:45Z")
This is very worrisome logic - 4chan started the “Okay hand sign is racist” joke \*with the precise intent of getting people to overreact to it, and that’s exactly what society is doing. \*It’s basically giving free license to people to distort something until we can’t even enjoy normal mundane things anymore.
What if 4chan decides that it wants to pretend that “Hello” is a racist codeterm? Would we get banned from saying “hello?”
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### Author:  [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/6 "2019-05-17T15:29:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> What if 4chan decides that it wants to pretend that “Hello” is a racist codeterm? Would we get banned from saying “hello?”
FWIW, there are already morons who won’t say “hello” [because it has “hell” in it](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/HeavenO).
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/7 "2019-05-17T15:31:30Z")
This and “it’s OK to be white” are perhaps 4chan’s most epic troll campaigns ever.
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/8 "2019-05-17T15:32:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> I didn’t realize, until this post, that some people perceive the _location_ of the circle to be the difference between mundane “OK” meaning and sinister “White Power” meaning.
If someone asks you “can you do X for me?” and you say OK from across the room and flash an OK symbol, do you put it upside down at at your waist?
I don’t. Because I want it to be obvious that I’m saying OK, I’m signaling OK and trying to make it seen. The people who put it down at the waist are doing for the same reason kid’s play the circle game. It’s not obvious, you have to be looking for it, and it’s far more likely that someone won’t notice it when doing things like publishing a yearbook.
It’s not necessarily true that these kids are white supremecists, it’s more likely they’re just asshole kids who are trying to get something over on the yearbook publishing committee by sneaking in a rude gesture.
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### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/9 "2019-05-17T15:36:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> This is very worrisome logic - 4chan started the “Okay hand sign is racist” joke \*with the precise intent of getting people to overreact to it, and that’s exactly what society is doing. \*It’s basically giving free license to people to distort something until we can’t even enjoy normal mundane things anymore.
There was an employee of a local ad agency who furtively flashed the sign in a self promotional picture the agency had taken. Once somebody noticed, a search eventually showed that the guy had a white-power online persona. He was fired. No distortion needed.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/10 "2019-05-17T15:37:11Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> If someone asks you “can you do X for me?” and you say OK from across the room and flash an OK symbol, do you put it upside down at at your waist? …
No, I hold it up at perhaps chest or shoulder height typically, and it’s “right-side up” FWIW. If the Christchurch shooter were to flash it right-side up and up by his shoulder, would you still think “hey, it’s elevated, and oriented correctly, so he probably just means ‘OK’” or would you think “that’s the asshole that shot a bunch of people because they were foreigners, he probably means ‘white power’ no matter the location or orientation of the sign”? In other words, do you really think the location / orientation is a good way to determine intent? I don’t.
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### Author:  [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/11 "2019-05-17T15:42:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> This and “it’s OK to be white” are perhaps 4chan’s most epic troll campaigns ever.
What’s your opinion on epic troll campaigns?
Me personally, I think they’re obnoxious and I’d prefer to live in a world where people didn’t do shit like this. I think we should be nice to each other, and riling fellow humans up for a laugh is anti-social behavior that should be discouraged. Agree?
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### Author:  [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/12 "2019-05-17T15:46:08Z")
A school in Chicago might be more sensitive to this because Cubs president Theo Epstein recently banned a fan who made the gesture from Wrigley. I’ve tried digging a little and have no idea if he had good reason to.
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### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/13 "2019-05-17T16:01:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> This is very worrisome logic - 4chan started the “Okay hand sign is racist” joke \*with the precise intent of getting people to overreact to it, and that’s exactly what society is doing. \*It’s basically giving free license to people to distort something until we can’t even enjoy normal mundane things anymore.
>
> What if 4chan decides that it wants to pretend that “Hello” is a racist codeterm? Would we get banned from saying “hello?”
Well, it’s all just arbitrary anyway, isn’t it? Everything has culturally ascribed meaning. Sometimes that meaning evolves in an organic fashion and other times those meanings evolve in an orchestrated fashion.
Maybe this sheds a light on the fact that all symbols are malleable and impermanent, but there’s nothing odd or unusual about witnessing a symbol undergo a shift in meaning.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/14 "2019-05-17T16:02:45Z")
> [@steronz](#):
>
> What’s your opinion on epic troll campaigns?
>
> Me personally, I think they’re obnoxious and I’d prefer to live in a world where people didn’t do shit like this. I think we should be nice to each other, and riling fellow humans up for a laugh is anti-social behavior that should be discouraged. Agree?
I generally think they’re a bit of mostly-harmless fun. “Capture the flag” was entertaining to read about, for example. I don’t get particularly annoyed by them. I think the world would be a better place if people didn’t get triggered by “It’s OK to be white” signs, and if other people didn’t troll easily-offended weirdos with said signs.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/15 "2019-05-17T16:15:14Z")
> [@Eonwe](#):
>
> Well, it’s all just arbitrary anyway, isn’t it? Everything has culturally ascribed meaning. Sometimes that meaning evolves in an organic fashion and other times those meanings evolve in an orchestrated fashion.
>
> Maybe this sheds a light on the fact that all symbols are malleable and impermanent, but there’s nothing odd or unusual about witnessing a symbol undergo a shift in meaning.
But this is \*purposefully engineered \*meaning, not accidental. The “OK” hand symbol was an intentional troll campaign by 4chan to get the public to consider a harmless gesture to be harmful. By caving in to 4chan on this, society is giving trolls all the power. The lesson 4chan has taken or will take away from this is that they hold the reins and can control society’s view of things as they please. They could get society to no longer do handshakes, high fives, clapping in concerts, say “peace out” or whatever on the basis of those suddenly becoming racist or offensive.
We need to stop letting the trolls win.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/16 "2019-05-17T16:23:06Z")
Unfortunately, DNFTT doesn’t work any better in real life than it does on the Internet. Letting 4chan control the public discourse is a bad idea, but there are always going to be people who fall for it. And catering to the gullible and over-sensitive is a growth industry.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/17 "2019-05-17T16:25:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> This is very worrisome logic - 4chan started the “Okay hand sign is racist” joke \*with the precise intent of getting people to overreact to it, and that’s exactly what society is doing. \*It’s basically giving free license to people to distort something until we can’t even enjoy normal mundane things anymore.
>
> What if 4chan decides that it wants to pretend that “Hello” is a racist codeterm? Would we get banned from saying “hello?”
This has nothing to do with 4chan, this has to do with white power supporters actually using it as a white power symbol. It doesn’t matter where or why this happened, it just is. Neither 4chan nor “the media” are the ones who made it so. The ease of deniability is a feature, not a bug.
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### Author:  [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/18 "2019-05-17T16:37:49Z")
“I’m pretending this is a racist gesture for fun”=“I am making a racist gesture.”
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### Author:  [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/19 "2019-05-17T16:42:16Z")
Exactly.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/20 "2019-05-17T16:46:33Z")
> [@TSBG](#):
>
> “I’m pretending this is a racist gesture for fun”=“I am making a racist gesture.”
> [@bobot](#):
>
> Exactly.
Do either of you think Prince Harry, of [nazi-costume-wearing fame](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-16/the-sun-shows-prince-harry-wearing-nazi-uniform/9752022), is a racist?
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