# "Okay" sign NOT? High School Year book pulled
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [May 17, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117 "2019-05-17T14:50:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/101 "2019-05-18T18:18:43Z")
> [@Covfefe](#):
>
> So rather than not distribute the yearbooks, it is better that they did not distribute the yearbooks.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to give the impression that I had formed an opinion on the yearbook distribution/non-distribution issue. I don’t even know yet if the people who paid in advance for their yearbooks are getting refunds.
> [@Covfefe](#):
>
> Are you aware of white supremacists who would feel perfectly fine if they never again encountered another human who is non-white? No room for them in that conceptualization.
I’ll confess that I didn’t make room for them, and that I don’t really think of their preference as being a thing that is achievable.
See? I’m not against the IDEA of things being unworthy of consideration, and therefore dismissable. :D:p
Anyway, wouldn’t they be more “white isolatonists?”
---
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/102 "2019-05-18T18:59:52Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> It occurs to me that “social justice” does not have to mean something negative\* in order for “Social Justice Warrior” to. Yeah, it sucks, but it’s the world we’re living in, and insisting that it isn’t does nothing to advance your interests.
>
> \*it doesn’t
The idea of “SJW” as a pejorative is to make it such that framing things as issues of “social justice” becomes associated with that pejorative, to make fighting for social justice something mockable and a joke.
By responding to “SJW” as an insult you assist that effort. It is as unto responding to “gay” as if it was an insult. Just because they mean it as one does not mean I need to accept it, or more importantly, _validate it_ as one.
To me the only answer to a charge of being a “Social Justice Warrior” is “well I would hope so, but I may not actually measure up … you fight for social _in_justice?”
Rolling over on the use of words and symbols, allowing those I think of as “the bad guys” to redefine my words and symbols, is how “liberal” became a negative for so long. I track it at least back to Dukakis accepting “card carrying member of the ACLU” as an insult when the right and best answer was “Damn straight, there is nothing more important to our values as Americans than defending free speech, and that means more than the right for _me_ to say what I want to say, and to hear what I want to hear, it means the right of others to say what I do not want to hear as well, or it don’t mean squat.”
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### Author:  [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/103 "2019-05-18T22:43:19Z")
> [@RitterSport](#):
>
> In this case, though, actual white supremacists (such as the NZ shooter, for example, and those politicians mentioned elsewhere in this thread) have adopted the symbol at face value. Is it catering to the gullible and over-sensitive if actual bigots use the symbol un-ironically?
As a migrant, in Aus, I’m saddened to see you using a gesture made by a foreigner, in a foreign country, as a criteria for behavior in the USA. I know, social media, the internet, Marshall McLuhan, etc. And the Hawaii Hello is a gang symbol in NZ, so Hawaii should just say goodby to that gesture also. But as a migrant, I got pretty sad about being told that my culture was inferior, and as a corollary, I’ve never felt happy with the idea that my culture (or any ‘foreign’ culture) was superior or definitive.
Different gestures have always been rude or meaningless in different cultures. I want to just accept that, and let it go.
---
### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2019, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/104 "2019-05-18T22:48:33Z")
Hopefully, this cheers you up:
> **[Cubs finish investigation of racist hand gesture on TV, ban fan from Wrigley](https://chicago.suntimes.com/cubs/2019/5/8/18621714/cubs-finish-investigation-of-racist-hand-gesture-on-tv-ban-fan-from-wrigley)**
>
> The gesture has been commonly associated with white nationalists and right-wing trolls.
It’s being used in the US, too. I just used the examples already in this thread.
Do I know that the fan was a white supremacist or just a trolling fucking asshole? Well, I’m not a mind reader. I’ll go with both until I learn otherwise. It’s pretty nasty putting that sign behind a black announcer.
---
### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/105 "2019-05-18T22:57:32Z")
Here are some members of the Alabama police force doing it:
> **[AL officers suspended over controversial hand symbol](https://www.al.com/news/2018/07/jasper_officers_suspended_for.html)**
>
> Four Jasper police officers appear to be making an "OK" sign with one hand. Some people consider the hand sign a show of "white power," but controversy around the symbol continues.
Probably just 4chan guys.
BTW, the 4chan post that claimed that the whole thing is a hoax to troll “SJWs” came out after the alt-right started using that symbol. I assume the people here saying it’s a 4chan hoax will be by shortly to apologize. Cite:
> **[Does the OK Sign Actually Signify “White Power,” or What?](https://medium.com/form-and-resonance/does-the-ok-sign-actually-signify-white-power-or-what-6cf3309df985)**
>
> The answer is neither simple nor straightforward, which is why it’s such an effective trolling tactic
> [@](#):
>
> The 4chan “hoax” post was made on February 27, 2017. Two weeks before this post was made, Media Matters had already called it a “hate symbol.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/106 "2019-05-18T23:13:10Z")
> [@Melbourne](#):
>
> As a migrant, in Aus, I’m saddened to see you using a gesture made by a foreigner, in a foreign country, as a criteria for behavior in the USA. I know, social media, the internet, Marshall McLuhan, etc. And the Hawaii Hello is a gang symbol in NZ, so Hawaii should just say goodby to that gesture also. But as a migrant, I got pretty sad about being told that my culture was inferior, and as a corollary, I’ve never felt happy with the idea that my culture (or any ‘foreign’ culture) was superior or definitive.
>
> Different gestures have always been rude or meaningless in different cultures. I want to just accept that, and let it go.
…as tangata whenua, I’m not saddened to say that with all due respect I don’t know what on earth you are talking about. White supremacy knows no borders. This isn’t about “criteria for behaviour.” The Christchurch shooter didn’t use that symbol by accident. He didn’t do it for an exclusively New Zealand audience. He knew exactly what he was doing.
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### Author:  [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2019, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/107 "2019-05-18T23:45:33Z")
Yes, and he wasn’t Hurr-hurr-trolling anyone either. He was slaughtering people.
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### Author:  [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/108 "2019-05-19T09:42:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> …as tangata whenua, I’m not saddened to say that with all due respect I don’t know what on earth you are talking about. …
I’ve reviewed what I wrote, and it seems to be fairly clear. I’m taking it that your inability to understand comes only from an unwillingness to engage with the ideas.
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### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/109 "2019-05-19T09:50:56Z")
> [@Melbourne](#):
>
> As a migrant, in Aus, I’m saddened to see you using a gesture made by a foreigner, in a foreign country, as a criteria for behavior in the USA. I know, social media, the internet, Marshall McLuhan, etc. And the Hawaii Hello is a gang symbol in NZ, so Hawaii should just say goodby to that gesture also. But as a migrant, I got pretty sad about being told that my culture was inferior, and as a corollary, I’ve never felt happy with the idea that my culture (or any ‘foreign’ culture) was superior or definitive.
>
> Different gestures have always been rude or meaningless in different cultures. I want to just accept that, and let it go.
You’re right.
Clearly, if someone stands up and throws a roman salute in, say, Australia, that can’t mean anything. After all, that could mean something totally different there!
Oh wait, except in this case, we know the person who did so we a big fan of hitler, and definitely knew exactly what it meant, and wrote a whole screed about how great hitler was.
Nah, still could be an innocent cultural misunderstanding, right?
:rolleyes:
We have more than just wild guesses to go on here. This guy was not appealing to “NZ culture” or any shit like that. He was using a symbol common within internet white supremacist circles, and doing so intentionally. To claim otherwise, simply because of “cultural distance”, is nuts.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/110 "2019-05-19T12:50:48Z")
> [@Melbourne](#):
>
> I’ve reviewed what I wrote, and it seems to be fairly clear.
…I’ve reviewed what you wrote, and I passed it around the official SJW committee and they reviewed what you wrote, and they all agree with me that what I said was absolutely correct.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m taking it that your inability to understand comes only from an unwillingness to engage with the ideas.
I am absolutely fucking willing to engage with ideas. I actually engaged with your ideas, I argued why I thought your ideas were wrong. That’s how engagement works. We know exactly what the Christchurch shooter was doing. And I know better than most. I’ve actually engaged with people from the alt-right. I’m tangata whenua. Unlike you I **live** here. Maori have been actively targeted by white supremacists. We know what is going on.
Your decision to snip what I wrote, to focus on a cherry picked snipped sentence demonstrates one things: an unwillingness to engage with ideas. You want to have a discussion? I’m right here. Have at it.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/111 "2019-05-19T14:46:34Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> … I track it at least back to Dukakis accepting “card carrying member of the ACLU” as an insult when the right and best answer was “Damn straight, there is nothing more important to our values as Americans than defending free speech, and that means more than the right for _me_ to say what I want to say, and to hear what I want to hear, it means the right of others to say what I do not want to hear as well, or it don’t mean squat.”
I, for one, would be grateful if you could remind the ACLU of this.
---
### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/112 "2019-05-19T16:06:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> I, for one, would be grateful if you could remind the ACLU of this.
Imagine thinking this is the most sensible response you can make to this thread.
Imagine being that person.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/113 "2019-05-19T16:17:51Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> Imagine thinking this is the most sensible response you can make to this thread.
>
> Imagine being that person.
Personally, I think it’s far more sensible than the hand-wringing over the OK sign.
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### Author:  [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/114 "2019-05-19T21:03:41Z")
Point of reference: I just went through my high school yearbook (early 90s) and I didn’t see a single OK sign in any picture. It’s not a common thing to do when posing for a picture. If there are multiple instances of kids flashing OK, then I’d say there’s something going on…
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/115 "2019-05-19T21:32:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> I, for one, would be grateful if you could remind the ACLU of this.
No need. [They know and exemplify that value.](https://www.aclu.org/about-aclu)
> [@](#):
>
> The ACLU is frequently asked to explain its defense of certain people or groups — particularly controversial and unpopular entities such as the Ku Klux Klan, the Nation of Islam, and the National Socialist Party of America. We do not defend them because we agree with them. Rather we defend their right to free expression and free assembly.
>
> Historically, the people whose opinions are the most controversial or extreme are the people whose rights are most often threatened. Once the government has the power to violate one person’s rights, it can use that power against everyone. We work to stop the erosion of civil liberties before it’s too late.
(Of course the freedom to express any specific belief, or to use any specific gesture, in a student yearbook is not a protected right, whether the gesture is a political statement I agree with, find obscenely offensive, or completely benign but potentially misunderstood. And the right to express also includes the right to express condemnation of what is expressed.)
**Monocracy** - One, these are believed to have been candids of kids, not posing. Two, amazingly what kids do when goofing around candidly and what games they play with each may change over a decade plus.
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### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/116 "2019-05-19T22:22:13Z")
> [@Monocracy](#):
>
> Point of reference: I just went through my high school yearbook (early 90s) and I didn’t see a single OK sign in any picture. It’s not a common thing to do when posing for a picture. If there are multiple instances of kids flashing OK, then I’d say there’s something going on…
I was photographer for my hs yearbook in 1976. A friend, Jeff B., flashed a middle finger in a large group shot. He told me he did it. I saw it right away, but it slipped by the editors and proofreaders.
ETA: no ok signs, but a few peace signs.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/117 "2019-05-19T23:20:23Z")
> [@kayaker](#):
>
> I was photographer for my hs yearbook in 1976. A friend, Jeff B., flashed a middle finger in a large group shot. He told me he did it. I saw it right away, but it slipped by the editors and proofreaders.
>
> ETA: no ok signs, but a few peace signs.
One of my friends said that in their yearbook a guy exposed himself by moving his shorts. He was sitting down in a group and it got by everyone.
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### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/118 "2019-05-19T23:32:13Z")
It was a simpler time.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2019, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/119 "2019-05-19T23:47:23Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> One of my friends said that in their yearbook a guy exposed himself by moving his shorts. He was sitting down in a group and it got by everyone.
…I’m a photographer: and yeah, I’ve had this happen to me more often than I’ve ever had someone flash an OK hand-signal. (Which is only once in 8 years of full time photography: I caught it and deleted it and used an alternate take)
---
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/120 "2019-05-20T17:37:34Z")
Email update today. Plan is still to figure out some solution that allows for yearbooks to be distributed at some later date and meanwhile blank books will distributed for signatures. Meeting by the board with public invited tonight but on such short notice I don’t think I can make it.
Again no accusation of ill intent being made.
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