# "Okay" sign NOT? High School Year book pulled
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [May 17, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117 "2019-05-17T14:50:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/161 "2019-05-23T03:09:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> It is very likely that the symbol was widely known among white nationalists before October 2017. And among those who follow what the current fads are among white nationalists, likely a inclusive of a few of this board. But even after Christchurch and the jerk at the Cubs game, it is still not something most in my community of well-educated and news following adults have known about, and it is a simple untruth to claim that it was widely known among the general public or among High School students in October '18.
The post I was responding to made the claim that the students would have to be “psychic” in order to know about the white power association in Oct 2018. I was simply correcting that bit of false information.
I agree that, despite a thread specifically about the symbol here on the dope, it’s _still_ not “widely known” outside of a certain subset of people who live and breathe on the internet.
Like me. And also, most teenagers. That’s all I’m saying, the odds of a few teenagers knowing about the white power “hoax” symbol in Oct 2018 out of an entire class of students is extremely high.
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> But sure, High School students at this school work well together and can coordinate across racial groups, clubs, sports, and gender, to pull off a prank flashing a white power hate sign! And do it in a way that no one got wind of it too!!! Dang they are good!
These “high school outrage” stories bubble to the national media periodically, and we discuss a lot of them here on the dope, and they’re all extremely frustrating due to a lack of information. Initially you knew nothing, then you knew it was one student in one photo, then we knew it was “a number of” students, and now we seem to know that it’s 18 photos across different racial and gender groups.
**But we still don’t know what the photos were.** If there was 1 black guy giving the OK symbol, and one Hispanic girl, and 16 douchey white guys who the school knows as “the 4chan type,” then the school’s statement is both accurate and also not the whole picture. You keep giving the benefit of the doubt to the students, which is fine and probably appropriate for a parent, but I don’t see any reason to do so. _Something_ about a proportion of the 18 photos was alarming enough that the school basically went into crisis control mode. Could it be possible that _some_ of the students are 4chan dweebs, and _some_ of them decided to be edgelords in the yearbook? Yes! It’s absolutely possible. And nobody can prove it. We can certainly disprove it, but I’d want to see all of the pictures before making that call, and nobody has.
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> It is easily imaginable for white nationalists to co-opt other words or symbols as their deniable signifier in the near future, a meaning understandable by context … could be just saying the word “Truth!” as a single word, or claiming that flashing the V (previously for victory or peace) now means support for their cause. If they do that is everyone else to stop saying the word “truth” or using the sign? Do we grant them that power?
I don’t know if there’s a good answer. But I know that I have the luxury of not being terribly affected by flipping through my high school yearbook and seeing faces of people who may be making a sign that they hate me for who I am.
---
### Author:  [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2019, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/162 "2019-05-23T13:27:07Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> I keep seeing the circle game being brought up. But it seems a lot of people don’t know what it is. Here’s the first part of the link:
> The game starts out when the Offensive Player creates a circle with their thumb and forefinger, not unlike an “A-Okay” signal, somewhere below his waist.
>
> His goal is to trick another person into looking at his hand. If the Victim looks at the hand, he has lost the game, and is subsequently hit on the bicep with a closed fist, by the offensive player.
>
> Now there should be one thing you notice about this. The game is to make someone else look. If you see them looking, you get to punch them.
>
> So, **how the fuck is this supposed to work in photographs**? At best, you might accidentally take a picture of someone playing the game. But then, why would multiple people do it at the exact same time, with none of them in any position to be able to see the other person do it?
>
> No, the circle game is as bad an explanation as the OK symbol. It does not fit the circumstances.
>
> So can we give up on these obviously erroneous explanations?
Did you not know about the circle game before you looked it up? There were meme images of the circle game as a “gotcha” well before the white power connotation. There were car bumper stickers with the circle and a “gotcha” or “made you look” or whatever message before the white power connotation. So, yeah, pictures involving the circle game are a thing and have been for a long time.
---
### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/163 "2019-05-23T13:41:37Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#):
>
> Did you not know about the circle game before you looked it up? There were meme images of the circle game as a “gotcha” well before the white power connotation. There were car bumper stickers with the circle and a “gotcha” or “made you look” or whatever message before the white power connotation. So, yeah, pictures involving the circle game are a thing and have been for a long time.
FWIW, I’ve never heard of the circle game until this thread. I guess it wasn’t a thing in NYC or at least in my schools. I guess the OP can tell us whether it’s a thing at his kid’s school.
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### Author:  [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2019, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/164 "2019-05-23T13:46:24Z")
Yeah, there were several stories about the gesture that went viral before October 2018. I heard of [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/coast-guard-member-flashes-white-power-hand-signal-tv-n909856?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma) story and [this](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kavanaugh-hearing-today-zina-bash-appears-to-make-white-power-sign-confirmation-hearing-husband-defends-her/)story and [this](https://www.newsweek.com/alabama-officers-suspended-over-alleged-hoax-white-power-hand-gesture-photo-1028563)story before October 2018. All of them made the rounds on twitter. I’m not going to say all of these kids knew or that it was widely known among the general public, but a lot of people who get their news from the internet and are involved in social media knew.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/165 "2019-05-23T22:15:40Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#):
>
> Yeah, there were several stories about the gesture that went viral before October 2018. I heard of [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/coast-guard-member-flashes-white-power-hand-signal-tv-n909856?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma) story and [this](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kavanaugh-hearing-today-zina-bash-appears-to-make-white-power-sign-confirmation-hearing-husband-defends-her/)story and [this](https://www.newsweek.com/alabama-officers-suspended-over-alleged-hoax-white-power-hand-gesture-photo-1028563)story before October 2018. All of them made the rounds on twitter. I’m not going to say all of these kids knew or that it was widely known among the general public, but a lot of people who get their news from the internet and are involved in social media knew.
Interestingly, the third link has this:
> [@](#):
>
> Some Jasper residents disagreed with the meaning behind the symbol and told WBMA-LD that it’s part of the “Circle Game” that kids play with the goal being to trick another person into looking at the hand gesture placed below the waist. If the person looks, the person doing the hand gesture gets to punch them in the shoulder, according to [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com).
>
> After speaking with two senior officers who are African-American and considered the punishment “fair,” O’Mary told WBMA-LD he suspended the officers for two weeks and docked their pay for one week. Newsweek reached out to O’Mary but did not receive a response in time for publication. While the mayor admitted to WBMA-LD that he hasn’t spoken to the officers to find out the intended meaning behind the gesture, he added the meaning doesn’t matter.
---
### Author:  [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/166 "2019-05-23T22:24:07Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> But sure, High School students at this school work well together and can coordinate across racial groups, clubs, sports, and gender, to pull off a prank flashing a white power hate sign! And do it in a way that no one got wind of it too!!! Dang they are good!
You know, I think I remember something like this happening before.
[QUOTE=Arlo Guthrie]
You know, if one person, just one person, does it, they may think he’s
Really sick and they won’t take him
And if two people do it, in harmony, they may think they’re both faggots and
They won’t take either of them
And if three people do it! Can you imagine three people walkin’ in, singin’
A bar of “Alice’s Restaurant” and walkin’ out? They may think it’s an
Organization!
And can you imagine fifty people a day? I said FIFTY people a day
Walkin’ in, singin’ a bar of “Alice’s Restaurant” and walkin’ out? Friends
They may think it’s a Movement, and that’s what it is THE Alices’s
Restaurant anti-massacre movement!
[/Quote]
---
### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/167 "2019-05-24T00:08:29Z")
Now they’re spending $53,000 to reprint the yearbooks.
> **[High School Spends $53,000 To Reprint Yearbooks After Students Flash Racist Sign](https://www.yahoo.com/news/high-school-yearbooks-racist-hand-sign-204500230.html)**
>
> While the intent of students at Oak Park and River Forest High School remains unclear, the photos were jarring enough that administrators withheld the books.
---
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/168 "2019-05-24T14:44:49Z")
Yes, **Velocity**. That was shared here within minutes of the board voting on it.
**steronz** , again, those who have viewed the pictures say that they do not believe there was bad intent and part of the problem is that without being able to see the pictures students and others are able to imagine anything to fill in the blanks of these pictures that had been thought to be benign when originally reviewed and approved by administration before going to print. Imagination and people being what they the blanks are likely to be filled in with images much worse than what was actually there. Indeed we’ll never know, so the worst can now be held as believable as the case stated by those who decided to pull the books.
Panning out to a bigger picture item is the principle expressed by both administration members and in that Jasper link, that _intended meaning doesn’t matter_. Let’s move out of this specific instance and focus on that as a principal.
It harkens back to [the … oh let’s be safe here … “n-word-ardly” 🙂 controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%22niggardly%22) in the '90s ([SD column on it here)](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1725/is-niggardly-a-racist-word/).
The word contains the sounds of a word that cannot be said by a white person (even in this context I am hesitant), and certainly could be used with that same intent the “okay sign” was co-opted to achieve: to signify a racist intent with some degree of deniability. Mr. Howard clearly had no such intent but it was heard as an offensive word and he experienced the consequences of saying an offensive word.
Are the responses of Julian Bond then
> [@](#):
>
> You hate to think you have to censor your language to meet other people’s lack of understanding
and the SD column take
> [@](#):
>
> Sure, you don’t want to offend anyone deliberately, but there’s a fine line between not being a jerk and examining every word you speak for nuances that might be misinterpreted by people who don’t understand them. If there’s one thing the Straight Dope has taught me, political correctness should always take a back seat to actual correctness.
now out of date?
Should the current standard be that if even one person of a traditionally considered oppressed group interprets a word or symbol used as something hurtful then the word is to be forbidden and removed from the record, no matter how much the context is very clear that the word or symbol had no bad intent?
Is it true that intent is does not matter?
---
### Author:  [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/169 "2019-05-24T14:58:41Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> **steronz** , again, those who have viewed the pictures say that they do not believe there was bad intent
Is that what they say? The email says “I want to be clear that we are not making any presumptions about students’ intent in using the gesture.” That’s not an exoneration, that’s them sidestepping the issue.
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> and part of the problem is that without being able to see the pictures students and others are able to imagine anything to fill in the blanks of these pictures that had been thought to be benign when originally reviewed and approved by administration before going to print. Imagination and people being what they the blanks are likely to be filled in with images much worse than what was actually there. Indeed we’ll never know, so the worst can now be held as believable as the case stated by those who decided to pull the books.
>
> Panning out to a bigger picture item is the principle expressed by both administration members and in that Jasper link, that _intended meaning doesn’t matter_. Let’s move out of this specific instance and focus on that as a principal.
It certainly is a squishy issue. I think intent does matter, up to a point, in that there are certainly going to be uses of the OK sign that are clearly not intended to be either racist or prank-racist, and in those cases the clear intent should be taken at face value. However, if 16 of the 18 pictures were of a few white boys making the symbol, and those pictures make the minority students _think_ there was malicious intent, does the true intent matter? Do you want to sit down with the black kids who feel unwelcome in their own school and tell them not to be so sensitive, that you trust the white kids when they say they didn’t mean anything by it?
Unless the intent is obviously not malicious, I wouldn’t fault any minority for being concerned, and I sure as heck wouldn’t try to talk them out of feeling the way they feel.
---
### Author:  [@Royal\_Nonesutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesutch)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/170 "2019-05-24T15:58:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> And **BigT** ignorantly and arrogantly wants to claim expertise…
It always shocks me to see people I respect so much act totally out of character.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/171 "2019-05-24T16:08:43Z")
Let us be clear: no student has been offended by any of the picture because the only ones who have seen them are the members of the staff that submitted them. The concern is over the potential that someone may be offended. No one knows if any actually would have been. The Black staff of the yearbook had not seen it as offensive when they submitted it. Black administrators had not experienced it as offensive when they approved it.
The administration’s expressed take during the meeting is that at the time they reviewed and approved the photos, months ago, they were of a benign nature. That’s why they were approved. It is the fact that with the recent news cycle of the individual making the gesture at Wrigley and the attention in more mainstream media that the symbol’s co-option now has, the potential for an offensive received meaning (and “trauma”) _now_ exists.
As to students’ takes on it I can only go by my daughter’s report. Again, her friends are a diverse lot by both race and SES. Her report is that students are all upset that the book was pulled, unhappy that the board is making presumptions about what they’d want without any student input, and unhappy that the administration at least initially seemed like they were throwing the yearbook staff under the bus. The racial difference she reads is only in degree of upset with her Black friends tending to be _less_ upset. She doesn’t know of anyone of any group who is happy that this decision was made. No doubt though that they exist; her experience is not a complete poll of the school. (And for further context, she is adopted and not racially white herself.)
In your take, how “obviously not malicious” does something need to be and by whose read? Tautologically if one person experiences a word or symbol as hurtful it was not obviously not malicious to at least one person.
Again, taking it out of this instance, given that no one here has the actual facts of how obvious or not obvious this was.
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### Author:  [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/172 "2019-05-24T16:11:40Z")
> [@steronz](#):
>
> Unless the intent is obviously not malicious, I wouldn’t fault any minority for being concerned, and I sure as heck wouldn’t try to talk them out of feeling the way they feel.
Personally, if someone is feeling distressed based on what they’ve heard from the media, I wouldn’t shy away from criticizing the media in replying to them.
---
### Author:  [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/173 "2019-05-25T00:44:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> The Black staff of the yearbook had not seen it as offensive when they submitted it. Black administrators had not experienced it as offensive when they approved it.
Unless you tell me he Black yearbook staff were actually making the signs, that’s immaterial. Also, imagine, Black adults not being aware of what racist thing white teenagers are doing this month!
> [@](#):
>
> The administration’s expressed take during the meeting is that at the time they reviewed and approved the photos, months ago, they were of a benign nature. That’s why they were approved. It is the fact that with the recent news cycle of the individual making the gesture at Wrigley and the attention in more mainstream media that the symbol’s co-option now has, the potential for an offensive received meaning (and “trauma”) _now_ exists.
You mean the Administration thought the signs were benign. If those signs had a racial context at the time of the Wrigley incident, it’s very likely they had a racial context before then. And a bunch of white adults might be even more clueless about what subtext a sign has than a bunch of Black adults.
> [@](#):
>
> In your take, how “obviously not malicious” does something need to be and by whose read? Tautologically if one person experiences a word or symbol as hurtful it was not obviously not malicious to at least one person.
>
> Again, taking it out of this instance, given that no one here has the actual facts of how obvious or not obvious this was.
My take is that the school administration is dealing directly with hundreds of students and parents, a school board and (is this a public school?) thousands of taxpayers ready to complain whichever position they take.
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### Author:  [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2019, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/174 "2019-05-25T13:48:31Z")
Well, I’m going to show those 4chan trolls. I’m not going to react at all, one way or the other.
And I’m certainly not going to reply to this thread.
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### Author:  [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/175 "2019-05-25T14:04:23Z")
Just remember that this is what these nimnods do. They co-opt otherwise innocuous signage so that they have their"plausible deniability" built in up-front. Viewed objectively, an OK sign is about as racist as a cartoon frog. But…
Personally I’ve always made the OK sign with the circle comprised of the the thumb and _middle_ finger, so I’m good.
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### Author:  [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/176 "2019-05-25T14:52:42Z")
> [@E-DUB](#):
>
> Personally I’ve always made the OK sign with the circle comprised of the the thumb and _middle_ finger, so I’m good.
You mean the NAMBLA membership sign? You disgust me.
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### Author:  [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/177 "2019-05-25T17:37:10Z")
Hey **Dseid**. Ya might wanna correct that location in your profile. Where it says Chicago, I didn’t realize you actually meant Chicago-adjacent!
Hadn’t checked into this thread until this a.m. when I showed up to play at the local farmer’s market, and one guy was bitching about the cost of reprinting.
I thought the better idea was to just put a stamp over the images, saying something like “No hateful images allowed.” But, as I understand it, the thought was that such a step would potentially harm these little darlings down the line. :rolleyes:
If you ever happen to stop by the farmer’s market, say hi! I’m the guy playing bass.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/178 "2019-05-25T19:27:33Z")
Next Saturday I am off and I will! I’ll be the guy who looks my avatar! Yes, Chicago-adjacent is more accurate.
At the meeting the concerns of the administration with stamps included that they might interfere with the longterm structural integrity of the book with the added thickness, that they might be able be removed and allow identification of the students in the images who could then, as a consequence of all this, be targeted by others in some way, and that doing such would be too time consuming for staff to pull off and as or more expensive than reprinting to have the printer do.
**Kent Clark** I am a Jewish adult and I am clueless about what the newest Jew-hating (which White Power endorsers are) signs are. In a time that has included mass shootings by members of these groups of Jews and Muslims both. Really, you think most parents of targeted minority groups spend much energy trying to stay hip with the newest White Power decoder rings?
It is an … interesting … position to take that if something historically benign is interpreted as offensive by some now, in the context of a current news cycle, it must have always have before.
Your last “answer” is completely unrelated to the question that you quoted being asked btw. Maybe you can re-read what you quoted and try to answer it? Or not if the question is not of interest to you. But yes, a public school with a few thousand students and more thousands of parents, and tens of thousands of taxpayers in two towns.
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### Author:  [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/179 "2019-05-26T14:33:35Z")
A guy who often plays fiddle at the market (and whose opinion I generally respect) addresses this issue in his [newspaper column](https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/eric-zorn/ct-perspec-zorn-highland-oak-park-yearbook-controversies-big-lie-racism-20190524-story.html) this morning.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-sign-not-high-school-year-book-pulled/834117/180 "2019-05-26T14:47:26Z")
Thanks for the link.
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