I’m sure you would be effectively responsible - but that’s because it would be a choice you made. To what extent do you think a parent should be legally responsible for their minor child’s offspring? I’m certain you would feel responsible to provide supervision, food ,clothing, medical care and housing for your grandchild if your daughter weren’t providing it- but that’s not legal responsibility. That’s being a backstop. Do you feel that a parent who prohibits an abortion should be legally responsible for the resulting child in the sense that the minor parent should never have a legal obligation to attempt to provide those things? Should your daughter have to check on your babysitting availability or should you have to check on hers? If ask your daughter to babysit for an evening and don’t return for a week, should you be charged with neglect? When your daughter is 18 , and the child is 3, who gets to live like a childless person- you or yur daughter ? I’d feel a whole lot better about parental consent/notification laws if those parents were going to be completely legally responsible for the child for the next 18 years. Good luck in getting that through. I’ve known way too many peole who would not allow their daughter to have an abortion, but would still take the attitude that she made her bed and now she can lie in it.
I’m not sure why you would think that a parent should be able to prohibit abortion and mandate adoption, but not prohibit adoption. Unless, of course you mean parents should be able to prohibit adoption as long as they take legal responsibilty for the child.
Stratocaster, I’m not asking you to take parental authority away from everyone. I actually believe that it’s a good idea for teenagers to be able to talk this over with their parents. I just would prefer it not be written into law for the sake of the tiny percentage of teenagers who are in situations like mine or worse. I also wanted you to realize that your understandable zeal to save the lives of unborn children could also result in teenagers like me losing their lives. If it’s worth it to you, so be it. It isn’t for me because of who I am and what I’ve gone through.
I’ll also give what I think my father’s opinion of it would be and what is part of my view. Frankly, it shouldn’t be any of the government’s business. I can just picture Dad grumbling about why should he have to tell the government I have his consent to have an abortion and why is the government interfering in his family life. I agree. With all the hassle involved in getting an abortion, not to mention those lovely individuals who feel free to call anyone going to a clinic where one can get an abortion a “baby killer”, why should someone have to produce yet one more bit of paper saying “Yes, my parents know about this”? Isn’t the process difficult enough? I suspect for some of the more radical pro-lifers, the answer is, “No. Not until it’s so difficult no one has an abortion.”
Every law on the books restricts behavior and enforces a particular value set. We are all arguing that only ethical options should be enforced, even if we are arguing different positions. I’m just willing to acknowledge the obvious. Or do you really believe that all choices ought to be up to the individual?
Is there any circumstance where you think a first timester abortion can be restricted? After the first trimester, what is a reasonable restiction from your perspective?
Um, where do you get the idea that I have that idea?
It would be settled the way all parental decisions are settled. If consensus can’t be reached, I dunno. Arm wrestling?
Yes, the latter. Parents are responsible adults, not children, and they need to behave accordingly. That’s part of what we sign on for when we accept the responsibility of being parents.
I’m not saying it’s “worth it.” I’m saying that it’s an objective lost at the start. We will never be able to land on a situation that works for everyone, where no child is put at a greater risk of harm–even suicide. Whatever we decide, that will not be best for certain children. That’s a sad reality, but it’s reality nonetheless. I wish there were a way to avoid it, but I can’t see how.
Precisely, which is why I don’t think it should be the government’s place to decide this. I would hope, if I ever have a daughter, that she wouldn’t make this decision without me; then again, I would that neither my hypothetical daughter nor any other woman would have to consider an abortion ever. Since neither you nor I will see that time, I want the government kept out of it.
Yes, but “keeping the government out of it” is a value decision as well, if by that we mean that we will let children decide for themselves and hope for the best. That’s not neutral or passive–it will put certain children at risk, children who will make a decision that is absolutely wrong for them that they would not have made if they had their parent’s involvement and support.
It’s also an unfortunate euphemism. Parents making the decision for their children is the default for most life-altering scenarios. “Keeping the government out of it” means “keeping parents out of it if children so choose.”
Fair enough stratocaster, but all I ask is that you be aware that requiring governmental interference in the form of requiring evidence of parental consent will result in the deaths of teenage girls, as surely as my position that abortion should remain legal will result in the death of unborn children. I’m sure it won’t be your daughter, or even anyone you or your daughter knows. I’m sure the number of girls who die will be less than 1% of the population. I respect that fact that you consider your position to be a very moral one and the best you believe you can take and I don’t expect you to change it.
Me, I have a rather libertarian/anarchist streak. I don’t necessarily trust the government, whether Republicans or Democrats are in charge. I certainly don’t trust bureaucrats! I would prefer to live my life with as little governmental interference as possible. More to the point, I have a curious habit of falling into less than 1% brackets. Sometimes it’s a good thing. As one of the less than 1% for whom requiring parental notification would have had serious, if not fatal consequences, I cannot in good, Christian conscience support mandatory parental notification, even with a judicial work around, even though I believe girls should be able to tell their parents. As I said, for most girls, including me, the consequences won’t be nearly as bad as they think they’ll be. On the other hand, girls are raped; girls do grow up in families which, despite the love they feel for each other, are abusive and do make threats in anger they wouldn’t carry out. I have been afraid of my father, afraid he’d kick me out, afraid he didn’t love me, and known full well I wasn’t yet prepared to support myself. I’ve been crying, afraid, and convinced I’m a disgrace to my family, and I was a basically good kid who was a complete prude! I’ve felt like I’ve had nowhere to turn because everyone I could turn to, including my own family, turned against me. Teenagers have flawed perceptions and make wrong decisions. So do parents sometimes. You feel compelled to protect the unborn. Fair enough. I respect your position. Because of who I am and what I’ve gone through, I feel equally compelled to protect the teenage girls who don’t have anyone to speak for them, as I once had no one to speak for me.
So, we stand in what I hope is respectful opposition.
Despite this, I hope your Christmas is filled with joy, love, and light.
CJ
Your worried about your typos?!! After suffering through my posts?!! Brother, believe me, you’ve got nothing to worry about!!
By the way, despite the difficulties between Dad and me when I was a teenager, I’d like to assure folks here that I really do love the old curmudgeon. He’s actually a good man at heart, who did the best he knew how to do given his own background. If he knew the damage he’d done it would devastate him, and I never want to see that happen. Fortunately, he considers message boards a lot of silly nonsense. I spent last night with him and Mum, and I’ll spend Christmas with them as well. I just want to go on record as saying he’s a good man and I really do love him, despite what happened over twenty years ago.
I think that was already clear in your posts. I agree: Honorable men can make bad choices despite good intentions (and everybody gets points for doing their best!).
catsix, for the second time in a row, I’ll suggest you’re not reading my posts very closely if you believe this is my position. This one in particular–do you really need to ask this?
No, you’ve made it abundantly clear that it’s not something your daughter gets to decide for herself.
You look past the damage that would be done to her, and to your relationship with her, and say blindly that you’d force her to have the kid with only one exception for life threatening circumstances.
You don’t believe she has the right to make the choice of whether or not to become a parent, as you chose to.
The current legal situation in which teenagers can abort without parental consent exists in part because of parents like you, and exists to protect your daughter’s rights.
I still want to know Whose decision should be final in a case where one parent will consent to abortion and the other won’t?
Oh, please! Can we dispense with the hand waving? Once again, you know that my decision would be damaging to my daughter, eh? How wise and all-knowing you are. Anyway, in case you’re not available on a given day, I say we revert to the standard, time-tested practice of letting parents provide the guidance and direction for their children, on the slim, slim chance they may actually understand their children’s needs better than some stranger.
No, I don’t believe she has the capacity to make that decision. Please stop attacking straw men, if you please.
Yes, yes, evil parents like me. I got you. I should be the villain in a Dickens novel, for sure.
I dunno. Again, I assume it would be the same way all other parental decisions are made. Do you require specific legal guidelines for all other potential conflicts that may fall within the province of parental decisions? I’d imagine that’s a pretty long list. Yet somehow, everyday, parents seem to generally get the job done without your help, amazing as that might be to you.
