Okay, so what is the argument FOR parental consent?

No, because we have the option of punishing her for her crime in a manner which better reflects her age and maturity level: i.e., juvenile court and/or juvenile detention. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as “juvenile abortion” or “juvenile childbirth” which provides a modified version of the experience specially tailored to the maturity level of minors. So your analogy doesn’t hold up.

Huh? No way are we saying “you’re on your own” or in any way forbidding the pregnant minor to include her parents in the decision-making. Of course most pregnant minors aren’t “on their own” when it comes to dealing with the consequences of pregnancy, thank heavens: they voluntarily inform their parents and seek their help and advice. We’re simply ensuring that in the cases where the minor can’t safely turn to her parents for help, she will not be forced to submit to their decision.

Not as evidenced by this post.
The topic is sufficiently heated; please avoid personal attacks.

[ /Moderator Mode ]

Another point to make is that our society seems to be rather schizophrenic when it comes to the issue of minors and granting adult rights. We sure as hell aren’t 100% consistant. For example, the age of consent for sex is 18 yet the age of consent for alcohol is 21. So we have a situation where an 18 year old can star in a pornographic gangbang film yet can’t drink a beer afterwards.

So obviously granting adult rights is not an all or nothing proposition. We can allow certain rights in certain circumstances and deny certain rights in other cases. A minor can petition the courts to be emancipated from her parents at the age of 16. Many state allow juveniles to be tried as adults as young as 13. I think it’s obvious that we aren’t always treating under 18 year olds as helpless lumps of clay to be molded by their parents and who aren’t responsible for their actions. Unless we’re going to be 100% consistant here I don’t think the argument that it isn’t consistant (vis a vis tattoos, piercings, etc) holds very much water.

So getting pregnant is absolute proof of being irresponsible and immoral, and a pregnant teenage girl got what was coming to her?

Excuse me, Shodan. The reason I do not support mandatory parental notification is because when I was a teenager, if I had gotten pregnant, which would have been by rape, I had every reason to believe it would have been my *parents * saying 'Tough it out, sweetheart - you’re on your own." Remember, my father threatened to kick me out for not being able to keep my room tidy enough and refused to do anything when I was fondled by a man who was more than twice my age.

Tell me, o fellow Christian, how was I “poorly qualified to make responsible moral decisions” when I trusted the father of a woman I took dance lessons from? I was 16 years old, a devout Christian and incredibly naive. While I’d heard that men who took advantage of women existed, I don’t think I qualified as a woman in my own eyes, and I certainly didn’t think I’d ever meet such a man or that he’d think I was worth doing anything remotely sexual with. You may not like it (I certainly don’t), but there are men out there who’ll blame their daughters for tempting men into assaulting them and will consider them morally irresponsible for doing so. My father, thank God, didn’t do that to me, but he did imply I was in the wrong for trusting a man I had no reason to mistrust until it was too late.

I agree that in the vast majority of cases it’s a good thing for a girl to tell her parents if she becomes pregnant and I’ll even concede that getting pregnant when you’re a teenager is a damn-fool thing to do. I don’t believe in having kids out of wedlock and the only reason I still don’t believe in not having sex outside of marriage is because of a failed engagement in my past. When I was a teenager, I was a downright moralistic prude when it came to sex and the encounter with my dance teacher’s father reinforced that attitude. The problem is, I know first hand that there are some rare circumstances under which mandatory parental notification could prove lethal. I was lucky to make it through high school as it was, given my history of suicide attempts. Can you honestly not see how repeatedly being told how stupid, worthless, and immoral I was wouldn’t increase the risk of me committing suicide? Can you honestly not understand what being told what a waste I was even without becoming pregnant did to me? Can you honesly not understand that a teenage girl might have good reason to fear her father? If you can’t, I suppose I should be happy for you. I wish I didn’t understand those things, especially given the way I gained that understanding. I’ve even admitted all along that things wouldn’t have turned out as badly as I’d have feared they would have. My father wouldn’t have really thrown me out as an ungrateful wretch, only threatened to. The problem is, at sixteen, I didn’t know him well enough to know he wouldn’t act on those threats. I do now. In the vast majority of cases, I am in favour of parental notification. It’s because of the tiny number of girls in situations like mine that I cannot morally support its becoming law. If this means that teenage girls have abortions, so be it. Knowing that I would have committed suicide rather than tell my father, I’d say it’s better there be one dead child than two, and, make no mistake, I do see it that way. Not much of a choice, is it?

Stratocaster, you brought up the issue of mental illness. I doubt it will surprise anyone who’s been following this thread to learn I suffer from clinical depression, sometimes severe. While it’s been a few years, I have been depressed to the point where suicide looked like a viable option. Those times make up a tiny fraction of my life, well under 1%, probably (I’d prefer not to run the calculations) less than a tenth or a hundredth of a percent of my life. An acquaintance of mine suffers from schizophrenia. When I’ve seen him, he’s been perfectly capable of making rational decisions about his life, as am I. His illness, I admit, does need to be controlled by medication; mine does not, although it has in the past. I have friends who do need to take medication for clinical depression. They are independent, capable, competent adults who support themselves routinely make decisions about where and how to spend their money and their time, how to earn their respective livings, and, in general, do the same things anyone who doesn’t suffer from a mental illness does. That includes whether or not to have sex, with whom to have it, and what form of birth control to use. Most of them are a lot more responsible about such decisions than some so-called “sane” people I know.

For most of my life, I have not wanted to have children. Among the reasons for this are how difficult my relationship with my father was, my fear of doing no better by my child than Dad did by me, and my concern about passing along the genetic components of clinical depression. Basically, I’d want to do a better job raising my child than my parents did raising me, and I wouldn’t want to saddle an innocent child with the problems I had. I haven’t liked myself much for most of my life, which is why the prospect of having a child “just like me” is much closer to a nightmare than a fantasy. As far as I’m concerned, my decision not to have children is a sensible, rational competent decision. The opinions of others may, of course, vary.

I also have a horror of the prospect of someone taking away my right to make decisions about my life because of my history of mental illness. That fear led me, foolishly, not to contact my therapist once when I was suicidal because I was afraid she’d have me involuntarily committed. That fear was unfounded. As it happens, thanks to changing circumstances, if I learned I was pregnant today (not likely, since I’m effectively in for the night), I would choose to keep the child, assuming there were no major birth defects and both the child and I survived it. That’s because of who I have become, thanks to some major changes over the past few years, who the father of the child would be, and some discussion he and I have had about this very issue. A few years ago, if I’d found myself pregnant and you told me I would have to keep the child because my history of depression renders me incompetent to make my own decisions, well, let’s just say the results would have been highly unpleasant. In some ways, crazy or no, in my late 30s and early 40s, I’d argue I’m more qualified to make my own decisions than some foolish little git in her 20’s because I know myself and my capabilities better. Going back to the OP, if I’d known about my father at 16 what I do at 40, I’d have been a lot more comfortable about telling him about a hypothetical pregnancy. Who knows? I might even have been able to tell him I’m not as worthless as he thinks. :wink:

Trust me, Stratocaster. Crazy people aren’t crazy all the time, or even most of the time and, when their illnesses aren’t ranging, some of them can be downright sensible and competent. Then again, it’s 9:24, I haven’t had dinner yet, and here I am posting! :eek: Maybe I am crazy, after all!

Good night, folks,
CJ

I was thinking about this thread and the fact that it takes two people for a woman to become pregnant and I was reminded of a cartoon I saw years ago. It showed a pregnant young woman talking to her boyfriend the caption was “That’s right, lover. The one parent I chose to notify was yours!” :smiley:

I realize this is introducing a whole new can of worms to this thread. In fact, it was that particular can of worms which got me remembering the cartoon. Still, I suggest we not overlook the effects of parental notification, not to mention references to poor decision making and moral irresponsibility as they apply to the man who was also responsible for the pregnancy. (I’d say “equal” but I realize that’s not applicable in all cases, even though I assume it is in most.)

CJ

What we do have is the option of treating abortion for minors the same as we do any other significant decision, which is tailored to the maturity level of minors. So I am afraid the analogy stands.

Because you were 16 years old and incredibly naive. I don’t see the relevance of your or my religious convictions.

Well, it is not a good sign. That part about “getting what’s coming to her” is your own exaggeration, so I don’t need to address it.

Regards,
Shodan

A man who’s 30 years older tried to take advantage of a 16 year old, and yet the 16 year old is the one who’s “poorly qualified to make responsible moral decisions”? All right. I have read stranger things in GD.

Don’t men also complain around here that women act like they’re all scum? It seems to me like your advice to my 16 year old self would have been to treat all men as scum.

Shodan, you’re as proud of your Christianity as I am of mine, yet what you’ve posted looks like you’re putting all the onus of being morally responsible on a teenage girl and none on a grown man. I’d prefer not to believe that’s true, but I’ll need a bit of help from you to do so.

CJ

catsix:

Getting pregnant knowing your parents will disapprove, while you live under their roof and depend on them for all the necessities of life is certainly lacking in sound judgment.

“Hmm…on the one hand, if it somehow comes out I’ve been having sex, then my parents, who control my supply of food and shelter and are capable of grounding me, docking my allowance, taking away my cell phone…maybe for something this extreme, I should even fear abuse…”

“On the other hand, it would be having sex.”

I’m with Shodan on this one.

And it’s always wrong for someone who’s under 18 to do something their parents will disapprove of?

I see nothing more than the attitude that anyone under 18 should legally be treated as property.

catsix:

Wrong in a moral sense? Not necessarily.

Foolish? It’s always foolish to risk long-term benefit for short-term gain. In this case, the kid is risking a good relationship with parents for an orgasm. You tell me if that’s a good idea.

If a kid wanted to pursue, for example, a career of which his or her parents disapproved, or developed an interest in a religion other than the one his or her parents adhere to, that, at least, is a long-term benefit the child hopes to gain in exchange for the risk of alienating the parents. The gamble might not pay off the way the kid hopes, but it’s not inherently a foolish one. Sex? Give me a break.

Then maybe you ought to remove your blindfold. Parent-child relationships are a two-way street, not slavery. You seem to think that anything less than unconditional tolerance, acceptance and approval of every decision a child makes is a form of oppression.

No offense, but I don’t believe I said it had to be only one or the other.

I don’t quite know what you are talking about here.

Well, how about if I reassure you that exactly the opposite is true? I am not the one putting all the burden of responsibilty onto children. I am the one who is arguing for putting it onto their parents, or a judge if their parents are not responsible.

As far as I am concerned, that settles it.

I win. :smiley:

Regards,
Shodan

Shodan, I apologize. When you seemed to be implying that at 16 I was morally irresponsible when I didn’t even realize the situation could be morally compromising until the man had his hands on my breasts, it rankled. I was unduly harsh to you, and I do apologize.

For the record, I still don’t think I was morally irresponsible. As I’ve said, at 16, I was a complete and utter prude who didn’t believe in sex outside of marriage and was somewhat disgusted by sex in general. If I’d had the faintest idea that what did happen would happen, I wouldn’t have let the guy within 10 feet of me.

I have already repeatedly agreed that in the vast majority of cases parents should be informed if their daughters are considering abortion. In an ideal world, it would be in all cases. I really am sorry, but given what happened to me, I cannot support mandatory parental notification in all cases. Look, an acquaintance of mine was repeatedly raped by her brothers when she was a girl. I gather that her parents chose to do nothing when they learned about it and, to this day, they don’t understand what all the fuss was about. Is there even a slight chance I could get a concession that for her, too, mandatory parental notification if she’d become pregnant would not necessarily have been a good idea? I don’t expect one.

I hesitated a couple of days before getting into this thread. I knew I’d be writing unpleasant things about my father, whom I really do love dearly, and dragging up some of my most unpleasant memories. Still, at the time, it seemed like people were saying the only reason a girl might be afraid to tell her parents she was pregnant was if her parents were ogres who were physically harming her. Because of what I went through, I wanted to show that a girl could be so afraid of her father she’d literally rather die than tell him she was pregnant without her father being an ogre and that abuse can happen without leaving a single physical bruise. I also wanted to point out that obtaining a judge’s permission isn’t all that better an alternative, especially for a young woman in a small town with no driver’s license.

I am not saying parents should never be told of their daughters’ pregnancies or that pregnant teenagers should be hung out to dry. I have never said that nor have I ever believed that. My argument all along has been there are some extremely rare circumstances in which mandatory (and please do note the word “mandatory”) parental notification can do more harm than good. I understand and even agree with the pro-life movements desire to stop human lives being taken by ending abortion. However, speaking as someone who is quite likely to have committed suicide than tell her father she was pregnant, I cannot help but have some concern for the lives of the young women at stake. Surely they count for something?

Stratocaster, Shodan, cmkeller, I’ve bent as far as I can in agreeing with you. In over 99% of cases, I fully agree that girls should tell their parents and that no one, girl or woman should ever have to face the decision to have an abortion alone. I won’t say, “In an ideal world, no one ever would” because in my ideal world, there’s no such thing as an unwanted or unviable pregnancy. The thing is, as abusive conditions go, mine was pretty mild. Despite my fears, my father wouldn’t have physically harmed me or kicked me out, although he would have made it very clear how stupid, worthless, and useless I was. There are other girls out there who have it far worse, whose fathers would beat them or throw them out on the streets. It’s because of young women like them and young women like I was that I am morally obligated to take the stand I have. If that offends, or makes you think less of my morals, so be it. I apologize for the offense, but not for my position. In my own way, believe it or not, I’m also trying to protect life.

Respectfully and regretfully,
CJ

Isn’t a brother raping a sister a crime? Isn’t the parents knowing of this and covering this up another crime (chlid abuse)?

I fail to see how excluding the parents from knowing can help get her out of a bad situation and punish the real criminals? Not doing so is just allowing the rape and abuse to continue - how is that helping her at all?

Perhaps a provision can be added that would allow a 3rd party to intercede between daughter and parents while a criminal investagation was underway.

In the case you mentioned I feel they should have been notified after they were handcuffed and read their rights by the police.

I don’t think you were morally compromised. That is sort of my point. Minors are too young to be presumed to be able to make significant moral decisions.

You didn’t make a moral decision to be assaulted, and all blame in the matter devolves entirely on the adult who assaulted you. None on you. You were a minor, and therefore even if you had consented to the assault, the responsibilty remains with the adult. That’s the point of statutory rape laws.

I have mentioned going to a judge in cases of abuse or neglect, even if no pregnancy results. Don’t you think that should have happened in this case?

It seems the alternative in your acquaintance’s case is doing nothing. I don’t see how parental consent for abortion is going to affect that - no one is advocating parental notification for incest.

I don’t think I can respond to this without making it seem I am talking about you personally.

Regards,
Shodan

Shodan, I wasn’t allowed to learn to drive because I was deemed to irresponsible. Bus service stopped at the town I grew up in.

Logistically, it could be very difficult for a young woman in the country with no access to public transportation to get to a judge to get the required consent. I don’t think judges usually keep weekend and evening hours, and the consequences for skipping school could be rather severe. I wouldn’t have known how to go to a judge at 16. Also, if a judge becomes involved and the girl’s parents find out about it, her situation could become worse. It most assuredly would in my case, and I shudder to think about what the consequences would have been.

As I told Stratocaster earlier in this thread, while I do sincerely respect your position, it’s simply one I am morally incapable of agreeing with. I hope you realize that disagreement does not mean disrespect, merely that because of our respective lives and experiences, we have different views. I never expected to change your point of view, only to try to explain to you what my point of view is and how I have arrived at it.

CJ

Wouldn’t the same objections apply if someone wanted to get an abortion without involving her parents?

Understood.

Regards,
Shodan

There were more doctors in town than judges and doctors have doctor-patient privilege. I also find the notion of going to a doctor less intimidating than that of going to a judge, but that may be just me.

As for my acquaintance, while I agree her parents should have put a stop to things, the fact remains that they didn’t and to this day, over 40 years later, her mother still doesn’t understand what all the fuss is about. I could tell you worse – a friend of mine survived being aborted in the third trimester. If parents always did what they should, in my mind, this debate wouldn’t be necessary.

CJ