Okay, so what is the argument FOR parental consent?

Great Debates
41

We still have fathers on this forum who admit to a double standard regarding their how they would feel about daughters and sex versus sons and sex.

Considering how forward thinking most people here are, if there are fathers here who are saying that about their own daughters, it’s not hard to extrapolate that into the more conservative types.

It’s not necessarily just ‘pretty teeth’ you know. There are a host of dental problems that are handled with braces, such as problems with permanent teeth coming in improperly and painfully, correcting jaw problems by using braces to pull in an overbite. Something similar was done with my mouth to lessen the effects of TMJ.

Of course, braces are also not a surgical procedure and I’ve never heard of someone dying due to complications from braces.

And getting one could cause complications like hemorrhage, infection, and possibly death. It may, if botched, affect future fertility and render the girl sterile for life. Although these complications are not common, the risks that do exist are for things much more severe than the temporary pain associated with braces. You want to remove all input from the person who actually has to take the risk?

What would you do if she said to you ‘My mind is made up. This is the decision I have made, and your input is not going to change it.’ and you disagreed with her decision?

Could I know for sure how my father would’ve reacted had I been in that situation? No. Did I have enough precedent to make a reasonable assumption and decide that the chance wasn’t worth taking? Absolutely. It wasn’t. I would’ve done whatever was necessary to not tell him.

People with the attitude ‘Don’t you dare get pregnant out of wedlock.’ coupled with ‘Abortion is always wrong.’ are not those you want to be telling that you’re pregnant and want an abortion.

42

Who is anti-choice again? Are you in the right debate here?

43

I just don’t think it is fair to link Anti-Choice with Parental Permission.
I am Pro-Choice and I am Pro Parental Permission. You might find a significant number of Pro-Choice voters are not against Parental Permission.

Jim

44

If I suggested preventing an abortion, then we would have a list of pregnancy related dangers to contend with. The child is already in trouble, there is no way out without some risk. How best to deal with it and the consequences is what is at issue.

Who is in a better position to decide what is safe and what is dangerous? The 13 year old who is barely responsible enough to babysit, or the adult who has already been through pregnancy, raised a child and has a lifetime of experience to draw upon?

I don’t think a youngster who just found out she is pregnant is going to be in a good position to weigh the possible risk of abortion with the risk of pregnancy and the effect either will put on her future life. Kids that age make more bad decisions than you can shake a stick at, it scares me to lay the responsibility on them, even though it is ultimately their life at risk.

45

The one who is pregnant is. Whether she’s 13 or 30, the fact of the matter is that it will affect her in a way that it will not affect anyone else involved in the situation. Allowing someone else to overrule her choice has too much potential for damage for me to ever agree with such a situation.

You must also accept that even if you make it law that parents must consent for a minor to abort, or that parents can force a minor to abort, there will be those who seek out other means. Do you want to force a scared teenage girl into a corner where the only options she sees are even more risky than they currently are?

I think you underestimate teenage girls. If you paint them into a corner, back against a wall, of course they’re going to make desperate and irrational decisions. That’s what people do when they feel trapped - it happens with adults too. Give them options and the opportunity to have a trained medical professional explain the risks, and I think most of them are pretty capable of understanding and making a decision.

Keep in mind that if the parents were to deny consent for an abortion and the girl could not obtain one, the law would automatically lay full responsibility for the resulting baby on the girl. She’s responsible enough to be a parent at 13, but not responsible enough to decide for herself that she doesn’t want to be?

Forgive me for taking into account the attitudes of people who are not members of this forum. After all, we’re talking about a law that would only affect the SDMB community, not the citizenship at large, in which such attitudes do exist.

In the future I will stick to operating in a hypothetical world populated only by members of the SDMB, where there are no people who both favor parental consent laws and are anti-choice, since it would be a bad idea to consider those two attitudes in conjunction when discussing a law that would affect all of the citizens of the state or country in which it was enacted.

Nobody here, on this forum, has to have that view for it to be a valid concern about a law that will affect perhaps an entire state or country. It’s enough, in my opinion, that such people exist in the general scope of ‘citizens’.

If you support this law, how would you contend with those who have a belief in both the idea that it is repugnant to be pregnant out of wedlock and that abortion is murder, if their daughters don’t share that view?

I’m thinking of my own father here. He had both of those opinions, and I never shared either of them.

46

Sorry, I was selfishly thinking about my own situation. I wouldn’t want my frightened and confused daughter to make such a choice without having to talk to us, her parents. (==Shiver==: this whole concept gives me the chills, my daughter is only 8)

Scenario: Parents are dead set against Abortion. Girl is dead set against continuing pregnancy and opting for adoption. Just being pregnant at school age will (in her mind) ruin her life. If Parental Permission is required she will need to break the law and possibly increase the risk to her life.
Damn it, I see your point. I don’t like having to suffer for someone else’s point of view, but I guess having Parental Permission required will cause more damage then not having it.

**Mark yourself a reluctant conversion to your side of the issue. **

Jim

47

Would you say the same thing about other kinds of elective surgery - breast implants, nose jobs, tattoos, piercings, that sort of thing? Or if she is bound and determined to drink, with or without your permission, you would agree that it is better than she do it in secret than run the risk that you might stop her if you knew?

Regards,
Shodan

48

No to all of them, I would even say no to the Abortion in secret, I stated my opinion. I just saw the logic in catsix viewpoint and reluctantly agreed that as this is not only about my family, I might be wrong on the issue. So again I reluctantly agreed.

Jim

49

I don’t understand your position, then. If you would say No to the abortion in secret, then are you in support of parental notification, or not?

Regards,
Shodan

50

I don’t choose or wish to impose my views on others in these matters.
Why don’t who take it up with someone firmly in the Anti-parental notification crowd.
I think in a rational society that a minor should need permission, but I am not convince we are in a rational society and this thread is convincing me that my view might not be what is best for all of the country.
Obviously I am not prepared to argue with you on this as I still need to think the issue over. Sorry I cannot rise to the debate, I am not prepared or willing to defend a position I am very unsure of.
I give you this:
The right thing to do would be for families to discuss the situation together and determine what happened and how it happened and how to prevent another pregnancy and then decide whether the Family will raise the unborn child, put it up for adoption or abort it.

Jim

51

I didn’t realise you were defining ‘Surgical procedure’ so loosely :slight_smile: In that case, you’re right. Abortion is a relatively dangerous procedure, at least compared to having a hangnail lanced. Still, I don’t think the fact consent is required before a minor can undergo the two trivial procedures you mentioned should necessarily lead us to the conclusion that parents have a right to be consulted before their daughter can have an abortion. As I argued in my previous post, the likely reaction to a request for an abortion can be far more explosive than the reaction to a request for a hangnail lancing.

[quoteMangetout]

I submit the existence of such organisations as this one; given that no such organisations exist for many other surgical procedures, I stand by my statement.

[/quote]

Okay, that’s fair enough. However, it may be worth considering the possibility that the one of the reasons why such counselling organisations exist is because of the social taboo surrounding abortion. Of course, I understand that this taboo does exist, that there’s nothing we can do about that and we have to take it into account. I just wonder how many women would need post abortion counselling if they all felt, as I did, that embryo’s were simply insensate clumps of coagulated cells rather than potential human beings which should be accorded the same rights as you or I.

I may be misunderstanding you, but are you saying that forcing a minor to have an abortion against her will is inherently wrong? That by definition it cannot be the best decision?

If so, wouldn’t it make more sense to oppose parental consent laws to help ensure this never happens?

52

And based on what you have said here, I have hope that in the coming years of your daughter’s life, you will be open and honest and support of her and make sure she knows that if such a thing ever happens to her, or she finds herself in that position that you will help her.

Your kid is not one I’d worry about hiding it from you.

I do understand your point of view, or at least, the one that you came into this thread with. I’m glad that you were able to see mine as well, even if you are never entirely comfortable sharing it.

It seems we agree that the best situation would be one in which the girl would be comfortable talking to her parents (or even just one parent) instead of going it alone. Where our difference comes in, I think, is in whether or not the law should mandate it.

Sometimes we get a choice between bad and worse.

53

Isn’t this a self-policing issue? I would think in the vast majority of cases where the girl feels comfortable to talk to supportive parents she will. If, however, she feels that the parents are going to say no or get abusive, she wouldn’t tell them.
What if the girl doesn’t believe in her immortal soul and the parents do? She knows they will never agree to surgery and she will end up in a back alley with a coat hanger. Is that good?
I think it should be re-titled parental refusal, not parental consent. The law is only required for objection not consent.
Teenage girls are going to have sex and teenage boys aren’t going to pass up the chance of a sure thing because they don’t have a condom handy. You can’t stop it any more than you can stop your teenage boys getting drunk and puking all over your hallway when they stagger back home. Trouble is a baby lasts longer than a hangover.

54

But if she doesn’t tell them (or a sympathetic judge), then she wouldn’t have the abortion, under the proposed scenario. So either minors can get abortions without their parents’ consent, or they can’t.

Is it good? No. Is it any different from other forms of emotional blackmail - 'if you don’t let me marry him, I will kill myself". I heard a case where a teenager committed suicide because his parents cut off his driving privileges. Is that a good enough argument for driver’s licenses for ten-year-olds?

Well, I don’t know that it is quite as inevitable as all that.

But as you say, a baby is a lot more serious than a hangover. Doesn’t it strike you as likely that someone dumb enough or careless enough (or unlucky enough) to get pregnant simply because “they don’t have a condom handy” might possibly benefit from someone a trifle older or more experienced? Especially if those older and more experienced folks are presumed to have the girl’s best interests at heart in every other kind of medical circumstance? Why is having an abortion enough in and of itself to create a presumption that every parent is simply waiting his chance to beat the bloody shit out of the little trollop?

Regards,
Shodan

55

Nobody is asserting that everybody is waiting for a chance to beat up their daughters. But there are certainly some fathers out there that have either fathered their own daughter’s baby or would become violent upon knowing that their daughter was pregnant or would become violent upon knowing that their daughter had an abortion. That needs to be considered but is a secondary issue.

The pertinent question in my mind is who has the compelling interest? I do not believe that parents have the compelling interest in their daughters’ lives that would give them the right to force their daughters to have children. I can’t get past the scenario of a parent refusing their daughter’s request to have an abortion, thus exposing the girl to more medical risk and forcing on her an 18 year commitment to raise a child. I believe the minor daughter does indeed have a compelling interest to decide for herself. The party with the most compelling interest should have the decision, which is clearly the minor daughter.

56

Are you sure? I seem to see a lot of andectodal evidence to the contrary. (Or for a high preponderance of complaisant parents.)

57

Only if the law is drafted that way. And I’m sure it never will be.

58

Errmm . . . as a matter of law, not true (the sex part).

59

Shodan, I’ve already expressed that my father is both opposed to sex outside of marriage and abortion. He was not in any way open to sex education beyond telling me not to. Had I gotten pregnant before I was 18 years old, which was a possibility, I would not have wanted to ever tell him about it because there was far too great a possibility that not only would I not have gotten consent for an abortion, but I would’ve been told that I had to get married. My shot at college would very likely not exist anymore.

What would you say to me had this happened and he denied his consent for me to get an abortion?

What would you say if I were willing to do anything, legal or not, to abort anyway?

Would it be OK with you if he had forced me to have the kid, and today instead of a thriving engineer with a bright future, I was uneducated and possibly working a very low wage dead end job?

I know it’s just hypothetical, but that’s the future that was at stake had I gotten pregnant. It’s something I considered, and I would rather have done anything than tell my father.

60

Abortion cannot be equated to tattoos or piercings or any other elective body modification because pregnancy requires that a choice be made. Not choosing is the same as a choice in this particular case. The pregnant girl does not and cannot have the option of not having anything happen to her body. She will either have an abortion or have a baby. She does not have the luxury of not making a choice. She can’t just wait until she’s 18 to decide for herself.

Allowing a parent to veto one of the two choices she can possibly make is horrific. Denial of one medical treatment simply means forced medical treatment of another sort. Because the girl is the one who is absolutely forced by biology to take the risk, she should be the one allowed to choose which risk she prefers.

There are other medical treatments that do not require parental notification (at least in some places). They are all heavily stigmatized and have the potential for backlash for the child. These include getting contraceptives, getting treatment for STDs, and getting treatment and/or counseling for psychiatric issues.