One person, so obscure I can’t even find info from google, compared to an international movement with a known propensity towards violence and tyranny. Why was he shot; was it by a parent ?
Originally posted by SaintCad: (bolding mine)
Originally posted by SaintCad:
Are the parents qualifed to give *medical * advice? Because that’s what I’m referring to.
Originally posted by SaintCad:
We’re discussing parental consent, not notification, at least according to the thread title. And I believe that your argument has been that the parents have the right to handle the situation however they see fit. It logically follows that if they have the right to prevent the abortion, then they also have the right to insist on it. And who are we to question them? They’re her parents. Right?
Originally posted by SaintCad:
Who said they were getting pregnant from toilet seats? Who argued that they’re innocent victims of fate? And why do we always arrive back at the idea that by having sex, you forfeit your right to live the way you choose?
If you choose to speed, and you get into an accident, should the hospital refrain from livesaving measures, since it was your own choice to drive too fast, and you’ll just have to face the consequences of that?
It’s not his health and his future that are at stake. The point, Shodan, is that I would’ve done whatever it took to get an abortion, even if it was illegal. You would prefer I do it illegally than by going to my doctor and having it done?
As long as it is in disagreement with what the daughter wants, then it is wrong.
For me, it would be. It’s been ten years since I’d have been affected by a parental consent law, and abortion is still the only option that I would choose. I firmly believe that the only person who should decide if a person becomes a parent or not is that person.
As I said, I am not even close to being a teenager anymore. I can still tell you that if abortion were made illegal today and I found out I was pregnant tomorrow, I would abort. No matter what, no doubt in my mind. I do not want children.
Determination is not ‘self-dramatization’.
For me? Abortion would most definitely not ever be the wrong decision, Shodan.
That includes parents overruling their daughters whose beliefs are different. My father may be anti-choice, but I am not and never was.
You do know that medically abortion poses less risk to life and health than carrying to term, don’t you?
The only way it doesn’t is if you don’t consider a minor under the age of 18 a person.
I still say it, and I’m rapidly closing in on 28.
IIRC, Shodan is anti-choice, so I think he’d agree with whatever scenario resulted in there being no abortion.
Choosing to abort is a consequence.
All the more reason for her parents to be involved. When you’re too close to a situation, it’s easy to make a rash or otherwise unwise decision–especially if you’re a minor.
And here is the issue: From my point of view, your rights as a parent do not include the right to overrule your daughter’s decision either to have an abortion or carry a child to term. If she believes you might overrule her, I believe she has a right not to tell you about it.
Your hypothetical pregnant teen-age self might benefit from being made aware of options that don’t ruin your future. Ever hear of adoption?
In every instance, or only in the case of abortion? Or are you arguing that there should be no such thing as an age of consent?
A fully adult person, no, obviously not. That’s the definition of a minor. Again, would you like to apply this to every decision made by every child, or only in the special case of abortion?
Wrong on both counts. I’ll thank you not to assign opinions to me that I don’t hold.
Same reasons that you think that “anti-choice” types (which is a lie in many or most cases) want to decrease them. Apparently all it takes is a perjorative name and an accusation.
Not even close to establishing your claim. Once again, please provide some kind of reasonable evidence that demonstrates that parents are more likely to be abusive when their daughters ask for abortions than when they receive other bad news of equal import.
This is GD. Put up or shut up.
And this is just plain goddam stupid.
Regards,
Shodan
It’s not the same. Pro-lifers, as a conscious policy goal, want to decrease the number of abortions performed in America each year, ideally to zero. Pro-choicers do not want to increase the number of abortions performed; they just want pregnant women to have a free choice and an available clinic.
Now that I completely agree with. More Birth Control and less abortions is a great goal.
Jim
Yes it is. One that your average pro-choice person would agree with, I imagine, most anti-choicers as well. However, a significant number of anti-choicers also object to birth control, which does not strike me as a position in agreement with wishing to reduce the number of abortions.
Abortion clinic bombings and assassinations are evidence of how violent the anti-abortion movement is; what do you think a “pro-life” murder/bomber would do to a daughter who wanted an abortion ? Besides, by his desire to force her to have a baby against her will, an anti-abortion parent has already demonstrated his complete contempt for her.
Really ? In both the cases of molestation and forced pregnancy/childbirth, the parent is violating the childs body for his/her own reasons; personally, I think forcing the girl to have a child is worse.
Give me a fucking break. You really think pro-lifers don’t want to decrease the number of abortions? The impact of notification on the abortion rate did come up in the debate in California. Plus, show me pro-choicers who say abortion is a virtue? (Out side of Communist China, that is.) I give you, for example, John Kerry, who said he was personally against abortion but for a woman’s right to choose.
Women today have the right to choose abortion, adoption, or keeping a baby. If abortion were made illegal again, they would lose one of these choices, thus anti-choice is not a perjorative name.
Time to face reality.
This is simply an argument against letting the parents decide, either. They are too close and don’t have the same compelling interest as the child.
You really want to argue for a third party making all the decisions?
And, just out of curiosity, is deciding to have the baby ever a “rash or otherwise unwise decision,” or is it only abortion that qualifies?
This is crazy. As a society, we do not legally consider minors to be informed enough to have willingly conceived a child. Every case of a pregnant minor is by definition statutory rape. So how can we possibly consider them informed enough to go ahead with an abortion…or a pregnancy for that matter? However, to get an abortion, an action must be taken. To carry the child to term requires only inaction, so where can one install a “gatekeeper” for notification or consent?
I have yet to hear anyone argue that a minor is mature enough to give informed consent, only that there is fear that the minor might be abused if forced to notify her parents. Terrible though the fear of abuse might be, how can we justify allowing advantage to be taken of the immature? Unless there is some reasonable indication of an abusive household, the parents should not be out of the loop. A minor by definition requires an external, mature voice in order to reach a sound decision. And if the parents are not the default voice, who is?
I don’t know if she takes it personally but I sure do.
How dare you second-guess her (hypothetical) decision. How dare you imply that she was wrong to fear her father’s reaction. Who’s in charge of her life: her, or you and her father?
How poorly you must think of women to suggest that we can’t properly recognize threats to our own (emotional or physical) health and safety.
This upsets me greatly because it encapsulates the whole abortion debate. What it comes down to is either that you agree that a woman has primary sovereignty over her own body, or you don’t. Either she is the best person to make this decision, or she is not. In this case you clearly believe the woman in question is not - and based on nothing more than message board posts! How dare you.
And then you go on to say
Except if it’s a teenage girl whose beliefs are different from her parents. Or if it’s a woman whose perception about own her father differs from Shodan’s.
Who exactly would be better off if these women were prevented from having abortions, ie obliged to have babies they don’t want?
Someone who can’t manage to avoid unwanted pregnancy is the last person I would nominate as an ideal mother!
DianaG: welcome to the 'Dope! Hope you stick around.
Ummm . . . no, it isn’t. Not unless the minor is under a specified age and the inseminator is over a specified age (each of which varies from state to state).
So what?
Not true.
Continuing the pregnancy through inaction is also a choice.
I think the minor has to give as informed a consent to whichever option because she’s the only person who can. Otherwise, you are justifying forced medical procedures and I ain’t going for that.
And I know for a fact that many of those who squawk about parental rights wouldn’t defend a parent’s right to force the girl to have an abortion. Oh no, the rights only count when it’s “pro-life.” They talk about “helping the girl” make a decision, except there’s only one decision they will accept. Hmm. Maybe this isn’t about helping at all.
Freeing the girl from parental consent protects her from parents like that, and from parents like me. (I’m not a parent, but if I were.) Because it would be my impulse to encourage an abortion. I’d want to encourage it strongly, perhaps heavy-handedly. And you know what? That’s okay, if my daughter trusts me enough to ask for my opinion. If she doesn’t, there is something wrong with our relationship, something no law is going to help.
I’d guess that most girls already know where their parents stand on abortion. People act like it’s a secret, that a girl needs that input. She knows already. If it’s just a matter of her getting that information, she already has it unless her parents are hypocrites.
Imagine you want to paint your house yellow. Your mother is offended that you didn’t ask her opinion. You didn’t ask her opinion because you knew she would say you should paint it blue. She always says you should paint it blue. She suggests to everyone they should paint it blue. How is asking for her opinion increasing the information you’ve got? It isn’t.
If some girl’s parents spend their weekdays picketing the local Planned Parenthood, just what new information will she get by asking them their opinion of abortion?
Then how can she consent to having a baby? There is no option that does not involve her making a major decision, or being coerced. None.
Therefore, parents should not be allowed a say in the matter.
And who should decide if the parents are likely to be abusive about this ? Who knows them better ? The child. Besides, we’re talking about a relatively old child here, not a three year old; they don’t have the judgement of an adult, but they aren’t the giggling morons some people seem to think.
Is there any middle ground to be found? I really don’t like the idea of parents being completely unaware of their children undergoing major surgery, whatever political implications may exist.
Perhaps we can have manadatory notification, but the final decision still rests with the child? Or, the minor can be granted an emancipation if their decision differs from the parents?
I just don’t like the idea that children can keep secrets like this to preserve the status quo -it’s not fair to the majority of parents. So, if there is abuse, the authorities should step in to end/prevent it, and, if the child refuses to comply with parental demands, there is a legal out for both sides?
I don’t think it impacts the majority of parents. When people (not you) feel like it will impact them specifically, part of me wonders if maybe they should be working to build a relationship of trust and flexibility with their children.
Let me ask you this: Do you think a minor who seeks suicide counseling should be able to without parental consent/notification? I do because desperate kids do desperate things, and I want them to have people to turn to when they think they can’t turn to their parents.
What do you think?