# Okay, the dowsing question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495 "2006-11-23T00:16:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/61 "2006-11-23T16:06:10Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] False assumption. A more likely culprit is objects in the way of your radio and the signal. I.e., the shape of the landscape, not what is underneath it. It actually takes a fair amount of power to mess up an AM signal. This is why you get the diruption from power junctions, lightning strikes, etc. Geomagnetics isn;'t going to cut it. [/QUOTE] l should have qualified my observations by saying that I look for the normal electrical interuptions which would include electric lines, large metal structures nearby or changes in landmass (hilly areas). Again, birds can sense magnetism so we know it is biologically possible. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/62 "2006-11-23T16:10:01Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] I’ll repeat it then: /mode=Dr. Evil One MILLION dollars. /mode [/QUOTE] Oh, stop, that made me laugh. And it’d only work if the flags were _yellow_…And I’d stand on one foot, humming the “Star Spangled Banner.” But seriously, let me try to figure this out. Looking at the link I provided about 10 posts ago, what is the scientific principal of utility locating now? This was a $7.00 an hour job, folks, we obviously weren’t Science majors. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/63 "2006-11-23T16:11:20Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] l should have qualified my observations by saying that I look for the normal electrical interuptions which would include electric lines, large metal structures nearby or changes in landmass (hilly areas). [/QUOTE] And solar conditions, and atmospheric conditions, etc. etc. You got a LOT to get through before you can blame anything in the ground for bad radio reception. > [@](#): > > Again, birds can sense magnetism so we know it is biologically possible. Birds don’t get pulled. They use their magnetism as a guide. This is like saying since a compass can point north it can also yank the arm that holds it so that you face north. You are comparing an ant crawling on you to the equivelant of an elephant stomping you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/64 "2006-11-23T16:14:39Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Moreover, electromagnetic fields generated by buried cables does not simply emerge as a distinct zone at ground level directly above them. [/QUOTE] That’s absolutely false. The disruption in current caused by an A/C motor (the kind with brushes) is easily detectable using an AM radio. It’s an old trick used by electricians and it works very very well. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/65 "2006-11-23T16:17:30Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] That’s absolutely false. The disruption in current caused by an A/C motor (the kind with brushes) is easily detectable using an AM radio. It’s an old trick used by electricians and it works very very well. [/QUOTE] Try reading it again. What I’m saying is that an electromagnetic field generated by a power line _ **affects more than just a narrow zone directly above it** _ Why do the rods only twitch when you’re directly over the cable? ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/66 "2006-11-23T16:18:02Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Moreover, electromagnetic fields generated by buried cables does not simply emerge as a distinct zone at ground level directly above them. [/QUOTE] Correct, this is why there is “bleeding” and we’d clip to a line, walk out 10’ try to find the signal, then walk it back in. Also why the utility companies give themselves 2’ either side of the marked line. And why it’s such a bitch locating multiple lines in close proximity, or buried in the same trench. I’m going to have to look up the definition of electromagnetic fields first, before I get into any more trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/67 "2006-11-23T16:18:40Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] But seriously, let me try to figure this out. Looking at the link I provided about 10 posts ago, what is the scientific principal of utility locating now? [/QUOTE] I can only speak for Urban Locations, where the big utility location device is: Blueprints! (and liberal application of orange spray paint) After that it involves some kind of ground radar or variations thereof: [http://www.geo-image.com/tud.htm](http://www.geo-image.com/tud.htm) I also know that any contracter that wandered the streets of Philly with a pair of sticks to find utilities would be hammers by the city on-site supervisor as well as be shunned by the other contractors. After all, would you want to work with the guy whose going to tell his backhoe operator to smash into a gas main because the stickys went bendy-bendy? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/68 "2006-11-23T16:35:36Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] And solar conditions, and atmospheric conditions, etc. etc. You got a LOT to get through before you can blame anything in the ground for bad radio reception. Weather conditions change, subsurface conditions do not. Which one explains consistent loss of reception at a given site? [QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Birds don’t get pulled. They use their magnetism as a guide. This is like saying since a compass can point north it can also yank the arm that holds it so that you face north.. [/QUOTE] Birds are reacting to a sense of magnetism, as would a dowser if that is what is being sensed. Photons don’t cause the iris to close, it’s a muscular reaction to light. I don’t think anybody is claiming an unseen force is actually pulling a dowsing rod down. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/69 "2006-11-23T16:37:33Z")
Well I hosed the coding so let me try that again: [QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] And solar conditions, and atmospheric conditions, etc. etc. You got a LOT to get through before you can blame anything in the ground for bad radio reception. [/QUOTE] Weather conditions change, subsurface conditions do not. Which one explains consistent loss of reception at a given site? [QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Birds don’t get pulled. They use their magnetism as a guide. This is like saying since a compass can point north it can also yank the arm that holds it so that you face north.. [/QUOTE] Birds are reacting to a sense of magnetism, as would a dowser if that is what is being sensed. Photons don’t cause the iris to close, it’s a muscular reaction to light. I don’t think anybody is claiming an unseen force is actually pulling a dowsing rod down. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/70 "2006-11-23T16:45:38Z")
Here is a link to a manufacturer of locating devices, how do they work? And are the signals detected by these scientific principles able to be detected with other devices? [http://www.globaldetection.net/index.php](http://www.globaldetection.net/index.php) See, that’s where I doubt the paranormal crap. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/71 "2006-11-23T16:56:05Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] Here is a link to a manufacturer of locating devices, how do they work? And are the signals detected by these scientific principles able to be detected with other devices? [http://www.globaldetection.net/index.php](http://www.globaldetection.net/index.php) See, that’s where I doubt the paranormal crap. [/QUOTE] Most of that stuff is a variation on metal detection. Unless you have a transmitter coil stuck in your body, what you are claiming to do is just paranormal. Here is an example of how they work: [http://home.howstuffworks.com/metal-detector1.htm](http://home.howstuffworks.com/metal-detector1.htm) Ground Penetrating Radar isn’t really all that different. [http://www.geomodel.com/gprtext.htm](http://www.geomodel.com/gprtext.htm) The model shown has a hefty microwave generator and antenna. Your body doesn’t have this. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/72 "2006-11-23T17:02:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Birds are reacting to a sense of magnetism, as would a dowser if that is what is being sensed. > > Photons don’t cause the iris to close, it’s a muscular reaction to light. I don’t think anybody is claiming an unseen force is actually pulling a dowsing rod down. There’s no equivelant of the eye for the human muscle system. It takes a lot of light to make the eye react that way, and it takes a lot of electricity to make muscles react. We are not antennas! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/73 "2006-11-23T17:03:15Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Most of that stuff is a variation on metal detection. Unless you have a transmitter coil stuck in your body, what you are claiming to do is just paranormal. [/QUOTE] Where’s the transmitter coil in birds? I haven’t seen any copper shavings on my windshield. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/74 "2006-11-23T17:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Where’s the transmitter coil in birds? I haven’t seen any copper shavings on my windshield. [/QUOTE] Apples and Oranges. The bird’s system is passive, and probably part of their photoreceptors. Unless you claim that all utlility pipes are giving off magnetic fields your comparison is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/75 "2006-11-23T17:16:01Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] There’s no equivelant of the eye for the human muscle system. It takes a lot of light to make the eye react that way, and it takes a lot of electricity to make muscles react. We are not antennas! [/QUOTE] That doesn’t make any sense. We are able to perceive very low levels of light and react to it. It doesn’t have to be autonomic for the phenomenon to exist. We know birds can perceive magnetism. We know the brain of a bird can perceive subtle queues and react to them. There is nothing paranormal about humans perceiving magnetism or some other queue that is projected by water. We are exposed to water everyday and if there are perceivable properties that water provides it would be natural for our brains to recognize them on some level and react accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/76 "2006-11-23T17:18:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* Mangetout : \*\* If you honestly believe dowsing works and you honestly think you can personally make it work, why would you not apply for the challenge? > > \*\*dahfisheroo : \*\* Because I don’t think it’s 'paranormal" It’s just another detection method. > > **Mangetout :** That would not disqualify you from entering the challenge, since dowsing is regarded by mainstream science as a paranormal claim. JREF doesn’t ask you to explain how you think it works (in fact they ask you not to bother); they just want you to demonstrate it. Fair enough. I have a claim that I am willing to demonstrate. Randi says that it is both a “delusion” and “a fiction not supported at all by geological research.” If Randi is telling the truth, then my claim is regarded by mainstream science as paranormal. I personally don’t claim it’s paranormal. I say that it’s totally 100% normal. But as you have pointed out that does not disqualify it. According to Randi, it’s paranormal. JREF asks applicants not to bother explaining how it works, just to prove that it does work. I’m willing to do that. I state that once I prove my claim does work, it will be seen that it isn’t paranormal, but as you say, that doesn’t make a difference. Randi doesn’t care how it works. Please do write to him and encourage him to honour the challenge he has set. [www.proverandiwrong.net](http://www.proverandiwrong.net) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/77 "2006-11-23T17:18:44Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Apples and Oranges. The bird’s system is passive, and probably part of their photoreceptors. Unless you claim that all utlility pipes are giving off magnetic fields your comparison is invalid. [/QUOTE] Why would all utility pipes have to give off a mangetic field to be a valid concept? ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/78 "2006-11-23T17:23:40Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] But why don’t they want a million dollars? That’s what I honestly don’t understand. [/QUOTE] I think I do. Because they are pretty sure that they’ll not get it. My crystal guy is pretty shrewd, but he would get me to read the Randi ‘contract’ as a backup, and I’ve scanned it and smell a rat. I’m quite interested in the para-mundane, and I happen to know that another borehole is going to be sunk in N Devon about 100 yds from the first. I want to be around when it happens - mostly to see how other people act. I strongly suspect that there are lurking talents that people don’t want to turn into a circus. For example I am an extremely good interrogator, I used to use it for business, only once have I found a person with the same skills, and she has yelled at me ‘don’t do that’ - it is hard to identify what I was doing, possibly something that I learnt from my uncle … I can only describe it as direct diffidence, but to me it feels like cracking open a nut. There are strange skills, and a lot of people who would hate to win the lottery. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/79 "2006-11-23T17:26:02Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Fair enough. I have a claim that I am willing to demonstrate. Randi says that it is both a “delusion” and “a fiction not supported at all by geological research.” If Randi is telling the truth, then my claim is regarded by mainstream science as paranormal. [/quote] As we all know from previous threads on the topic, your interpretation of what Randi says is quite loose and imaginitive. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/80 "2006-11-23T17:26:35Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Why would all utility pipes have to give off a mangetic field to be a valid concept? [/QUOTE] Because the birds are detecting the Earth’s magnetic field. Your hands or the flags, do not have anything to ‘detect’. Ergo, invalid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495.md?page=5)