# Okay, the dowsing question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495 "2006-11-23T00:16:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/81 "2006-11-23T17:30:07Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Because the birds are detecting the Earth’s magnetic field. Your hands or the flags, do not have anything to ‘detect’. Ergo, invalid. [/QUOTE] The flags wouldn’t be detecting anything. They would be the visual representation of muscular reaction to perceived stimuli (magnetism). ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/82 "2006-11-23T17:32:26Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] My crystal guy is pretty shrewd, but he would get me to read the Randi ‘contract’ as a backup, and I’ve scanned it and smell a rat. [/QUOTE] Which part bothers you? Can you cite a section, paragraph or sentence that you feel is unfair to any party? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/83 "2006-11-23T17:32:29Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] We know birds can perceive magnetism. We know the brain of a bird can perceive subtle queues and react to them. [/QUOTE] What are these ‘subtle cues’ with regards to bodies of water, pipes, and whatnot? > [@](#): > > There is nothing paranormal about humans perceiving magnetism or some other queue that is projected by water. Yes it is. Look at the EMF sources sitting right next to you as you type on this computer. By comparison, water does not give off a fraction of a fraction of this level of field. Even if you are away from the computers and stuff, you have the Earth’s magnetic field which would overewhelm any minor source water could provide. Any metals in the soil would also act as spoilers. Add to that, as was pointed out before, water is pretty much everywhere underground, albeit in varying depths and qualities. Either way the water, if it had a field would be everpresent. > [@](#): > > We are exposed to water everyday and if there are perceivable properties that water provides it would be natural for our brains to recognize them on some level and react accordingly. This is unsupported newagey thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/84 "2006-11-23T17:33:50Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] The flags wouldn’t be detecting anything. They would be the visual representation of muscular reaction to perceived stimuli (magnetism). [/QUOTE] But what are they detecting? THERE’S NO FIELD TO DETECT. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/85 "2006-11-23T17:52:38Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] What are these ‘subtle cues’ with regards to bodies of water, pipes, and whatnot? [/QUOTE] It’s not the field you’re reacting to, its the variance. If you use a radio to detect a buried power line you are looking for changes. [QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Yes it is. Look at the EMF sources sitting right next to you as you type on this computer. By comparison, water does not give off a fraction of a fraction of this level of field. [/QUOTE] I agree but what’s your point? That would imply that EMF signals mask out perceivable magnetic waves which is not the case. Even if you are away from the computers and stuff, you have the Earth’s magnetic field which would overewhelm any minor source water could provide. Any metals in the soil would also act as spoilers. Add to that, as was pointed out before, water is pretty much everywhere underground, albeit in varying depths and qualities. Either way the water, if it had a field would be everpresent. This is unsupported newagey thinking. [/QUOTE] I expect flowing water influences magnetic waves just like many other substances do. Add minerals and you have a method of depositing them in a linear fashion which would continue to change over time creating a geological change that would exist even after the water stops flowing. To use your example of a monitor as an EMF producer I point out that they create a magnetic field that exists after the device is shut off (which sometimes requires degaussing). This was a prevalent problem with older TV’s and the old-timer repairmen use to make a degaussing ring for just that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/86 "2006-11-23T17:58:54Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] I expect flowing water influences magnetic waves just like many other substances do. Add minerals and you have a method of depositing them in a linear fashion which would continue to change over time creating a geological change that would exist even after the water stops flowing. [/QUOTE] The effect you describe ouwld be minimal, at best and truth to be told, nonexistant. even with water flowing any potentially minerals would be unlikely to line up in order and make a field. Otherwise the Earth’s Magnetic field would be doing this constantly and making everything magnetic. > [@](#): > > To use your example of a monitor as an EMF producer I point out that they create a magnetic field that exists after the device is shut off (which sometimes requires degaussing). This was a prevalent problem with older TV’s and the old-timer repairmen use to make a degaussing ring for just that purpose. EMF produced by a monitor is overwhelming compared to any field that even a torrent of water woudl create. You keep going back to birds detecrting the Earth’s magnetic field. Keep in mind that as weak as the field is, it is completely overwhelming compared to any effect generated by what you describe on its best day…and that’s assuming anything would be generated. It.just.wont.work! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/87 "2006-11-23T18:00:19Z")
Again with the bad coding. My apologies. I’m getting lazy with Preview because I’m on dial-up. That will change in a week. [QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] What are these ‘subtle cues’ with regards to bodies of water, pipes, and whatnot? [/QUOTE] It’s not the field you’re reacting to, its the variance. If you use a radio to detect a buried power line you are looking for changes. [QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Yes it is. Look at the EMF sources sitting right next to you as you type on this computer. By comparison, water does not give off a fraction of a fraction of this level of field. [/QUOTE] I agree but what’s your point? That would imply that EMF signals mask out perceivable magnetic waves which is not the case. [QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Even if you are away from the computers and stuff, you have the Earth’s magnetic field which would overewhelm any minor source water could provide. Any metals in the soil would also act as spoilers. Add to that, as was pointed out before, water is pretty much everywhere underground, albeit in varying depths and qualities. Either way the water, if it had a field would be everpresent. This is unsupported newagey thinking. [/QUOTE] I expect flowing water influences magnetic waves just like many other substances do. Add minerals and you have a method of depositing them in a linear fashion which would continue to change over time creating a geological change that would exist even after the water stops flowing. To use your example of a monitor as an EMF producer I point out that they create a magnetic field that exists after the device is shut off (which sometimes requires degaussing). This was a prevalent problem with older TV’s and the old-timer repairmen use to make a degaussing ring for just that purpose. There’s no reason that water would not act this way over millions of years. It certainly acts this way in my house’s plumbing. The metal buildup is substantial. And from personal experience I’ve had my GPS lose 12 satellites at once when crossing specific area’s of the Ohio River. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/88 "2006-11-23T18:01:58Z")
Ok, but how about shallow concentrated lines with electricity, or cable TV, or phone? I know you are getting frustrated with my ignorance, but this is an honest question, I am truly perplexed, and out of my depth. I’d really like to know. Most of these lines don’t have a large amount of metal in them, or have plastic conduits, or in the case of fiber optic, have a tracer line that you hook up to. If I could set this up correctly, I’d have just one big ass electric feeder line that was hot in the middle of a field in the boonies. Or maybe a big gas line. What is the process that you give a constant electric charge to keep a pipe from rusting? Maybe that’s a factor. Yes, I am completely out of my depth here, and ruing the impulse that said “Hey, you’re kinda bored on a Thanksgiving morn, why don’t you peruse the 'Dope, make an ass out of yourself?” ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/89 "2006-11-23T18:07:53Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] JREF asks applicants not to bother explaining how it works, just to prove that it does work. I’m willing to do that. I state that once I prove my claim does work, it will be seen that it isn’t paranormal, but as you say, that doesn’t make a difference. Randi doesn’t care how it works. Please do write to him and encourage him to honour the challenge he has set. [/QUOTE] When you provide a proposal of something that can be (1) properly tested and that (2) has no other explanation than “none” or “paranormal”, your claim will be accepted. You have not done this yet, therefore it has not been accepted, AFAIK. I am certainly not going to support your irrational plea to make up your own rules and make them stick to the organization offering you the money. Besides, your claim will not even be considered if you don’t follow the most basic rule, which is to send a properly prepared and notarized form to the correct address. I see nothing on your web site that says you have done that, but maybe I missed it. If you have applied, please let us know when this was done. If you haven’t, your claim is only so much hot air. BTW, within at least 50 miles of my house, it would be nearly impossible to drill a dry hole no matter how you define it. It’s a dowser’s delight. I know of no well driller that ever failed to bring in water as long as they went down to 600 ft and didn’t stop in the middle of a rock boulder. Local dowsers have a 100% success rate if you define that as “dig here, you will get water,” and you dig and you do. Do you think this would be a good area to conduct a satisfactory dowsing test by random drilling? **Turning to something else…** So far in this thread, the suggested explanations for how dowsing might “work” have focussed on some kind of field that might emanate from a wire, water, grave, or whatever, \*and is undetectable by scientific instruments. \* This requires a physical presence near the object to be detected, and the ease of detection should decline with increasing distance if the force is typical of all others known to science. However, there exists a spinoff of such dowsing, map dowsing, where distance is not a factor. Draw a map, however crude, and use your device over the map in a similar manner to actually being there. Proponents claim the same high success rate for sites dowsed this way. Map dowsing, if valid, throws all theories out the window and establishes itself firmly in the realm of the psychic and paranormal. The only claim that can be made is that the mind is somehow connected with the universe’s mysterious and otherwise undetectable forces. And example of map dowsing is a dowser asking, out loud or to himself, a question such as, “Is there water in the map area”? The device will then move in a manner that is interpreted as yes, no or a number if appropriate. That’s right, folks, the _rod moves in response to a vocal question!_ According to the dowser, _it moves by itself,_ or possibly by the brain telling the hands, it’s unsure. I call it BS, but on such actions have entire careers been built and books written. For more on map dowsing and related topics, I recommend the 3 books and one short story written by Kenneth Roberts. They are not scientific papers, but narrative stories. All are out of print, but can often be found thru used bookstores/sites: [ul][_]The Kenneth Roberts Reader, with an essay at the end on how he discovered dowsing[_]Henry Gross and his Dowsing Rod[_]The Seventh Sense[_]Water Unlimited[/ul]Roberts is an engaging author and total believer. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/90 "2006-11-23T18:07:54Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] Well, I read the link to the dowser, that guy’s a frickin’ moron. Read the JREF guidelines. I don’t think this would qualify because it’s not paranormal. [/QUOTE] It _does_ qualify. Trust us – James Randi is extremely interested in dowsing. They’ve done tests on it before. If you (or anybody you know) can detect anything with any dowsing method, you (or they) will get a million dollars, free and clear! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/91 "2006-11-23T18:08:57Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] You keep going back to birds detecrting the Earth’s magnetic field. Keep in mind that as weak as the field is, it is completely overwhelming compared to any effect generated by what you describe on its best day…and that’s assuming anything would be generated. It.just.wont.work! [/QUOTE] Magnetism exists. It’s not a generated field. It’s affected by geological influences. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/92 "2006-11-23T18:13:35Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Magnetism exists. It’s not a generated field. It’s affected by geological influences. [/QUOTE] Geological, yes. Not by water in an aquifer, not by simple utility pipes. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/93 "2006-11-23T18:18:04Z")
[QUOTE=chorpler] It _does_ qualify. Trust us – James Randi is extremely interested in dowsing. They’ve done tests on it before. If you (or anybody you know) can detect anything with any dowsing method, you (or they) will get a million dollars, free and clear! [/QUOTE] Really? Anything with any dowsing method? I guess I’ll write up a proposal for my dirt-dowsing and see what happens. I’m a little skeptical, but what the hey. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/94 "2006-11-23T18:23:59Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] Ok, but how about shallow concentrated lines with electricity, or cable TV, or phone? I know you are getting frustrated with my ignorance, but this is an honest question, I am truly perplexed, and out of my depth. I’d really like to know. Most of these lines don’t have a large amount of metal in them, or have plastic conduits, or in the case of fiber optic, have a tracer line that you hook up to. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. These sorts of cables will naturally have a certain level of EMF to them. But that field is not exactly strong (especially cable TV & phone, where the electricity is not high.) They are also often shielded, otherwise they would cause problems. Shielding has its limits, as using an AM radio under a junction box will show you. The fields are also very ‘short’. I don’t have exact figures but even high power, shallow electrical cables (which power companies try not to do) carrying their max load are unlikely to have much effect outside a few inches. At least as long as the shielding is undamaged, and even _then_ you won’t get much. There really is no way the human body can detect such weak fields. If they were any stronger, then they would actually overwhelm, locally, the Earth’s magnetic field. Last I checked, my compass still works in the city. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/95 "2006-11-23T18:24:13Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Geological, yes. Not by water in an aquifer, not by simple utility pipes. [/QUOTE] I disagree. mineral deposits alone would certainly alter the terain over time. My conjecture on dowsing is just that, conjecture. But I base it on the fact that brids can perceive magnetism and geology influences how magetism is projected. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/96 "2006-11-23T18:26:54Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] I disagree. mineral deposits alone would certainly alter the terain over time. My conjecture on dowsing is just that, conjecture. But I base it on the fact that brids can perceive magnetism and geology influences how magetism is projected. [/QUOTE] Then you fail to understand magnetism. The birds are detecting a known magnetic field. Your proposal for dowsing is that humans, with no evidence to support it, are somehow able to detect fields that are much, much smaller if not non-existant. No evidence, no mechanism, no science. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/97 "2006-11-23T18:35:59Z")
God, I am going to be late. **Mr. Miskatonic** , Your quote “There really is no way the human body can detect such weak fields. If they were any stronger, then they would actually overwhelm, locally, the Earth’s magnetic field. Last I checked, my compass still works in the city.” I’m not talking about my body, I am talking about little pieces of metal, (and on further reflection, I don’t know the composition of said metal,) moving. Would a compass register variances in regards to sub surface lines? Was there some intuitive deduction going on while doing hard locates? Sure there was, no question, you do get a second sense of where and why people did things, even utility guys. Got to go. Happy Thanksgiving everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/98 "2006-11-23T18:36:10Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] Then you fail to understand magnetism. The birds are detecting a known magnetic field. Your proposal for dowsing is that humans, with no evidence to support it, are somehow able to detect fields that are much, much smaller if not non-existant. No evidence, no mechanism, no science. [/QUOTE] No, that’s not what I propose. I’m suggesting that flowing water creates a zone of mineral deposits that over time will create magnetic variance. Unless birds are flying straight up a line of magetism then they are perceiving the changes that exist across a plane of magnetic variances. Doesn’t really matter in my area because we use dowsing rocks. They’re much simpler to use. You stand facing the area that you don’t want to drill and throw the rock behind you. Works almost every time. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/99 "2006-11-23T18:39:38Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] No, that’s not what I propose. I’m suggesting that flowing water creates a zone of mineral deposits that over time will create magnetic variance. [/QUOTE] Why would all the poles of these deposited minerals be aligned to create such a variance. And where are these flows of water? Barring Karst countries and some Aquifer drift, the water underground ain’t flowing > [@](#): > > Unless birds are flying straight up a line of magetism then they are perceiving the changes that exist across a plane of magnetic variances. No, they are (in all likelyhood) using their photoreceptors to detect changes in the spectrum, probably UV, that the magnetic field is causing. Not the field itself. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495/100 "2006-11-23T18:42:16Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] God, I am going to be late. **Mr. Miskatonic** , Your quote “There really is no way the human body can detect such weak fields. If they were any stronger, then they would actually overwhelm, locally, the Earth’s magnetic field. Last I checked, my compass still works in the city.” I’m not talking about my body, I am talking about little pieces of metal, (and on further reflection, I don’t know the composition of said metal,) moving. Would a compass register variances in regards to sub surface lines? [/QUOTE] Sorry about that, you and **Magiver** are giving me two mechanisms. I am getting them mixed up. But no, the poles in your hands are unlikely to be effected. They are too heavy, and even and awkward holding of the flags will provide too much resistance. > [@](#): > > Was there some intuitive deduction going on while doing hard locates? Sure there was, no question, you do get a second sense of where and why people did things, even utility guys. Very likely. Even an untrained person can get some clues as to where the pipes and things are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-the-dowsing-question/381495.md?page=6)