# Okay theists, where'd he go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2000, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301 "2000-05-01T21:39:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/21 "2000-05-02T16:28:06Z")
According to my Catholic upbringing, a miracle happens every time a mass is performed: Water and wine are transformed into the blood and body of Christ. And then you’re supposed to eat it. I’ve always thought it was sort of a strange tradition–“Now, we are going to eat the body and drink the blood or our Lord and Savior.” “Are we angry at him?” Having participated in the ceremony a number of times, I can happily reassure the skeptical that the objects still taste, thankfully, like bread and wine. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/22 "2000-05-02T16:41:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > The Orthodox Jewish answer to this question: > > There was not a sudden stoppage of miracles, there was a gradual lessening of them. As generations progressed further and further from the ideals G-d stated at Sinai (remember, this this the Orthodox Jewish answer…obviously, Christians think that the lifetime of JC was the pinnacle of human existance, and other religions have their own answers), people were less and less often deserving of a changing of the natural order for their sake. > \*\* On the one hand, that makes sense to me. On the other hand, it seems to me that some of the most grandiose miracles of old were performed on those who _were_ undeserving. The wicked were punished as, or maybe more often than the righteous are rewarded. Although, if God were to be of the opinion that everyone was pretty much undeserving, then he would be left with examples of heavenly displeasure that nobody would learn from. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/23 "2000-05-02T16:45:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > There is that Mormon story about the locusts and sea gulls at the Great Salt Lake. That story is only about a 100 years old. I live about two hours from the beach and we have sea gulls in the Walmart parking lot, but I’m sure to the early Mormon settlers that really was a miracle. If there is any truth to the story. > > Needs > \*\* I never heard of the Mormon seagull miracle before, but it sounds like it might be a little less showy than the miracles of old. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/24 "2000-05-02T16:54:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Hate to pick nits, andros, but 'twas 1983. No, **Gad** , you don’t hate to do it. And you shouldn’t. By the Horn of the IPU, that was stupid error on my part. Sheesh, I was in the Pit for the game, I should remember. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/25 "2000-05-02T17:00:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > If it was ‘undeniable proof’ wouldn’t everyone be christian now? I mean, how could jews remain jews if they are faced with undeniable proof of God’s and then JC’s power and divinity? > > This thread seems to be running on the assumption that the miracles mentioned in the bible happened _as described_. Maybe we don’t see many spectacular miracles today compared to the distant past because there never were spectacular miracles in the first place. > > \*\* As far as the ‘undeniable proof’ thing goes, both for Jews and Christians it really wouldn’t be much in the way of undeniable proof if it was something you got thirdhand. But for those that are actually present… If Moses waved his arms and the Red Sea parted down the center, I’d pretty much be a convert right there. There isn’t anything in the way of sleight of hand to explain the really **big** miracles. (Which is what always bothered me about the story of the golden calf-- What the heck were they _thinking_ ticking off a God that parted the sea for them and then dropped it on the head of Pharaoh’s troops?) I do, for the purposes of this thread, present the miracles as happening as they were described. I don’t believe that they did, but I am trying to get a handle on what the theists, who presumably do believe that happened just as presented, point to as the reason(s) why miracles are either absent or much quieted when compared to those of yore. I’ve heard of the miracles of old, and I’ve heard of the…well not miracles exactly- call it divine intervention on a grand scale- to come in Revelations. But nothing have I ever heard to explain why we live in an era devoid of miracles. In the past God apparently acted directly in the world with spectacular results. In the future he will apparently do the same. Why not now? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/26 "2000-05-04T14:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > But nothing have I ever heard to explain why we live in an era devoid of miracles. In the past God apparently acted directly in the world with spectacular results. In the future he will apparently do the same. Why not now? I predict that, in the future (perhaps the far future), God will have been said to have been working miracles in what is now the present. Now, neither you nor I will be around to find out, but that is my strong suspicion, just as now we hear about these miracles from the past. ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/27 "2000-05-04T16:42:15Z")
I have a different opinion. I predict the future will view God and Christianity much as we view the Greek mythologies of Zeus and Hercules. As mankind becomes more technologically advanced, we will gradually let go of our superstitions when they become unnecessary encumbrances. ---
**Author:** ![sixseatport](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sixseatport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sixseatport)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/28 "2000-05-04T17:09:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > I have a different opinion. I predict the future will view God and Christianity much as we view the Greek mythologies of Zeus and Hercules. As mankind becomes more technologically advanced, we will gradually let go of our superstitions when they become unnecessary encumbrances. > \*\* Thank you, Friedrich Nietzsche. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/29 "2000-05-04T17:53:28Z")
Ptahlis: > [@](#): > > On the one hand, that makes sense to me. On the other hand, it seems to me that some of the most grandiose miracles of old were performed on those who were undeserving. The wicked were punished as, or maybe more often than the righteous are rewarded. Different criteria applied in the pre-Sinai days. I was merely responding to why overt miracles don’t seem to occur nowadays (in the ORthodox Jewish worldview). Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/30 "2000-05-04T18:03:46Z")
Just to hijack for a moment: **Chaim** , do Orthodox Jews pray for intercession in the same way that Christians do? i.e. “Please help our football team go all the way to state this year.” Just wondering if maybe you were trying to get in a good word inre the Royals this year. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/31 "2000-05-04T18:50:05Z")
GLWasteful: Boy, that _is_ a hijack! The answer: yes, Jews pray for Divine intercession. I suppose there might be some more obsessed Jewish Royals fans who use their time with G-d to ask for a miracle (such as their finishing at or above .500 this year), but we pray for sick individuals, for couples trying to have a baby, for people in distress of any kind on a regular basis. Mind you, I don’t know if this is “the same way Christians do,” but I imagine it’s similar. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/32 "2000-05-04T18:56:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Thank you, Friedrich Nietzsche I’ll bet I could teach you a few things about the raising of the wrist! ---
**Author:** ![sixseatport](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sixseatport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sixseatport)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/33 "2000-05-04T19:01:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Thank you, Friedrich Nietzsche > > I’ll bet I could teach you a few things about the raising of the wrist! > \*\* _singing_ Socrates himself was permanently pissed… [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/34 "2000-05-04T23:50:19Z")
Hardcore said: > [@](#): > > I predict the future will view God and Christianity much as we view the Greek mythologies of Zeus and Hercules. As mankind becomes more technologically advanced, we will gradually let go of our superstitions when they become unnecessary encumbrances. While I’d like to agree, I don’t think I can. I mean, we’ve gotten more technologically advanced already and instead of a decrease in religious belief, polls have shown at least a steady state, if not an increase. Admittedly, it’s a short time span, but I am not convinced that even a few more thousand years will bring an end to superstitions. They are simply too ingrained in the human psyche. That said, it is quite possible that God as we now “know” it will be thrown into the “myth” pile with the Norse and Greek gods, but if so, I think it will be replaced with a different concept for the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Boogarrheal\_Catastrophe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Boogarrheal\_Catastrophe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogarrheal_Catastrophe)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2000, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/35 "2000-05-05T07:19:41Z")
> [@](#): > > … where’d he go? The answer is simple: God is retired. I think he moved to Fort Lauderdale. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2000, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/36 "2000-05-05T14:02:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > While I’d like to agree, I don’t think I can. I mean, we’ve gotten more technologically advanced already and instead of a decrease in religious belief, polls have shown at least a steady state, if not an increase. \*\* Some say it’s precisely _because_ of our rapidly advancing technology that God has experienced a popularity boost. The increasing pace of change has exacerbated the needs many have for some fundamental stability, a bedrock they can cling to which will not be eroded. Faith, whatever else it may do, provides those people with a touchstone that is proof against the times. Personally, I like a universe that we may have to rethink every few years. Keeps the place from getting too stale! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2000, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/37 "2000-05-05T15:25:54Z")
Jeff\_42 wrote: > [@](#): > > When was the bible written? 500 A.D.? 1200 A.D.? More like 1000 B.C. - 100 B.C. for the Old Testament, and 50 A.D. - 150 A.D. for the New Testament. By 500 A.D., Christianity had been the official religion of the Roman Empire for over a century. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2000, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/38 "2000-05-05T15:52:01Z")
Jeff\_42: Oops! Missed when you said (thanks, tracer!) > [@](#): > > When was the bible written? 500 A.D.? 1200 A.D.? Whenever it was there was obviously a good period of time between the ‘miracles’ and their chronicling. According to (Orthodox) Judaism, that’s actually not true. Here’s the breakdown, of the narrative books, according to the accepted Orthodox Jewish time-line: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy: Written by Moses (last eight verses by Joshua), begun 1312 BCE, completed 1272 BCE. Except for the miracles in Genesis, recorded by witnesses. Joshua: Written by Joshua (last bits by Elazar and Phineas the Priests), begun 1272 BCE, completed around 1260 BCE. Recorded by witnesses. Judges: Written by Samuel, around 900 BCE or so. Earliest events about 350 years before they were recorded; latest about 20-50 years before they were recorded; probably contemporaries of the writer could have witnessed them. Samuel: Written by Samuel, Gad and Nathan, begun around 900 CE, completed around 840 CE. Recorded by witnesses or their contemporaries. Kings: Written by Jeremiah, around 420 BCE. Earliest events about 420 years before they were recorded, latest events recorded by witnesses. Ruth: Recorded by Samuel, around 900 BCE or so. Events around 100 years before they were recorded, but Ruth herself could conceivably have still been alive; her children or grandchildren, who probably knew her, certainly were, so onlya one-generation removal of story. Esther: Recorded by Mordecai and Esther, around 360 BCE. Recorded by witnesses. Daniel, Ezra, Nehemia: Recorded by Ezra and Nehemia, between 400 BCE and 350 BCE, contemporaries of witnesses to some events, witnesses themselves to others. Chronicles: Recorded by Ezra. Spans entire history of the above books, recorded around 350 BCE. Books that do not deal mainly in narratives but rather are collections of prophecies, prayers, wise advice: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the Twelve Minor Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes. Uncertain date: Job. It is said to have been written by Moses, but the Talmud is uncertain as to when Job actually lived. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Iolanthe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7bcc69/32.png) [@Iolanthe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iolanthe)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2000, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/39 "2000-05-05T19:58:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > … where’d he go? > > The answer is simple: God is retired. I think he moved to Fort Lauderdale. > \*\* Heh. See, I knew us Jews were right. If G-d had been a WASP, he would’ve gone to Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![Neo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Neo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2000, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301/40 "2000-05-07T01:04:15Z")
Why has God stopped doing miricles? The fact is that it was not “God” at all who did the Old Testament “miricles”, but instead It was “The Ruler Of This World” - ie:(the first appointed lord who rebelled against the will of The True God and attempted to make himself as God), - who was judged at Jn.12:31 and was dethroned at the time of Jesus’ ascension. Aside from a hidden string within _one_ of the prophets, The True God (Jesus/Father) is absent from the O.T. from Gen.2:3 throughout. Because the Jew knew this imposter “God” so well, they had no problem knowing that Jesus was not him. This is why they (attempted) to kill Jesus; because Jesus professed that He was “The True God” and thus the Jew understood that Jesus was actually stating that the “God” the Jew had known was NOT The True God. Jesus came to the Jews and said (MY PARAPHRASING); “The Jews are correct, there is but one God, but that chump in the Old Testament is NOT Him, and by the way, I AM”. Have scripture, will discuss it. seeeyuh [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-theists-whered-he-go/18301.md?page=3)