# Okay to ask guest to leave their guns at home? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226 "2009-11-20T00:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/361 "2009-11-23T04:06:27Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Now were are getting somewhere. You admit that having a pool is more of a risk to your kids than a gun. So, what if this discussion was about how we weren’t going over to Aunt Peggy’s house for Thanksgiving because she has a backyard pool? I think there would be universal derision at such a statement, and it would be correct. > > And then the argument would disintegrate into whether Aunt Peggy has a right to have a pool, or whether you have a right to decide where you go for Thanksgiving dinner. None of that is at issue. > > The question is whether it is reasonable, rationale, polite, mannerly, whatever, to ask a > guest to leave his gun at home. I, and others, have argued that there is no rational reason to insist upon this because the risk posed by that guest carrying a gun is so small as to be near zero. Nobody has refuted this point as of yet. > > What people have said is, “Well, why does the person need to carry in the host’s home?” They don’t need to, but that’s not the question. The fact is that they usually carry a gun, and as a host, I should have a decent reason for asking them to stop doing something that poses no threat or problem to me. There is a BIG difference here. A pool is an inanimate object. A person carrying a gun is not. People make mistakes. If you want to suggest you are incapable of making a mistake I would disagree but that is neither here nor there. It is human. Shit happens however unintentional it may be. Not to mention people can be unpredictable. Do I need to make an assessment of how rational and responsible a person is before deciding they can bring a gun in my house? What if I let you bring a gun in but I decide Argent Towers is a hothead (as an example) and I do not want him to have a gun in my house? Seems far better to just say you both cannot have one than to pick and choose (assuming I could always make a good assessment of who is a risk and who is not). Perhaps you go to the bathroom and decide the gun is chaffing and take it out and set it on the counter for a moment. Something you almost never do but this time you do it. You leave the bathroom and forget the gun is on the sink. Next person in the bathroom is a kid. That hypothetical is just that but there are lots and lots of such things. Thousands of gun accidents happen every year. If I have a pool it is a risk to my kids. If you come with a gun to my house you have added to that risk. Why would I want an added risk that is unnecessary? Even a small and remote risk? Leave it in the car…no big deal. The defense you bring with the gun, presuming some attack on the house while you are my guest, is smaller than the danger you represent with the gun. In the end I do not see how it matters. It is my house. If I ask you to take your shoes off before entering then do so or leave…your choice. Same with the gun. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/362 "2009-11-23T04:24:42Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But with this gun issue, you are asking a guest to not do something that he usually does without providing anything resembling a rational reason for doing so. I consider that to be rude and unmannerly. I want to highlight this. You presume I know you to be a responsible gun owner who is always rational and a stand up guy. At least I suppose you think this about yourself so my telling you to leave your gun in the car is rude and unmannerly in your view. My question to you is how do I know you are a responsible gun owner who is always rational and a stand up guy? How am I to query all the guests who may show up to a party I throw, quite possibly unknown to me as they are accompanying someone I invited? How do you go about this? Am I seriously expected to stand at the door and query every guest who enters whether they have a gun and if so then ask 20 questions to assess their threat level? I do not mean these questions rhetorically. Seems to me the rude and unmannerly thing is to just assume I am ok with you having a gun in my home. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/363 "2009-11-23T05:09:52Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Sigh. For the 10th time in this thread, nobody is telling you anything about what to do in your home. If you want to insist that your guests be members of Handgun Control, Inc. as a condition of entry, that is perfectly acceptable. Sigh. For the 10th tine, you are arguing against a position that nobody here has taken. > [@](#): > > So, what if this discussion was about how we weren’t going over to Aunt Peggy’s house for Thanksgiving because she has a backyard pool? I think there would be universal derision at such a statement, and it would be correct. I think there would be no derision,and that would be correct. > [@](#): > > I, and others, have argued that there is no rational reason to insist upon this because the risk posed by that guest carrying a gun is so small as to be near zero. Nobody has refuted this point as of yet. I and others have refuted it several times. I will do so again now, just for your benefit: 1. I don’t believe anybody knows what the risk is, least of all you. If you do know then show us the evidence by which it was calculated. 2. There is no rational reason to insist upon carrying a gun to a fricken’ dinner party because the risk posed by the host/turkey is so small as to be near zero. 3. There’s nothing irrational about not wanting my wife to have a 1 in a million chance of being shot and left paralyzed. It is perfectly rational not to want to put any additional risks on my family, no matter how small. 4. My home is where I choose to relax. Thanksgiving is when I choose to relax. If you indulge in a risky activity in my house I can’t relax. There’s nothing irrational about asking people not to engage in potentially lethal activities at a dinner party. So there. Your argument has been completed refuted. None of these refutations are novel to this post by the way. They have been presented numerous times by numerous posters. > [@](#): > > as a host, I should have a decent reason for asking them to stop doing something that poses no threat or problem to me. And the fact that they increase the risk of my wife becoming a quadriplegic, or the risk of my daughter being blinded isn’t a decent reason? Once again I ask: who are you to decide what constitutes a decent reason for protecting my family, and upon which basis do you make such decisions? jtgain, you spout off about things not being reasonable, but you are unable to show that they actually are unreasonable. Your entire positions is based on assumption that you get to unilaterally decide what reasons are and are not acceptable. That’s not rational. ---
**Author:** ![Claude\_Remains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/364 "2009-11-23T08:05:29Z")
Once again I want to ask- How many of you John Wayne wannabe dildo’s have saved the day cause you just happen to be packin? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/365 "2009-11-23T13:45:46Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But with this gun issue, you are asking a guest to not do something that he usually does without providing anything resembling a rational reason for doing so. I consider that to be rude and unmannerly. Here’s a rational reason–“There are a lot of goddamn stupid fucks with firearms out there, and since I (being unfamiliar with firearms since I don’t own any) have no basis for believing I can successfully vet safe vs. unsafe gun owners, I ban all firearms in my home. Please leave it in your car or at home.” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/366 "2009-11-23T13:51:43Z")
> [@Claude\_Remains](#): > > Once again I want to ask- How many of you John Wayne wannabe dildo’s have saved the day cause you just happen to be packin? This is just as uncalled for as the crap the minority of gun owners in this thread are spewing. I hope I never have to draw my gun in an actual dangerous situation–if something that low percentage is going to happen to me, I’d rather have won ten grand or so on the lottery, and I gather most people who carry feel the same way. Call it “fear” if you want, it’s more or less the same kind of impulse that prompts people to use lightning rods, wear seatbelts, and not let their children pet stray dogs–there is a risk they feel they can mitigate by having a gun on their person. Now, granted, whether or not carrying a gun is like those previous examples or more like “I’m not wearing a helmet when I ride my motorcycle, because I can hear better and reduce my risk of an accident” is unknown, since there’s wholly inadequate data on the actual protective value vs. risk of proper concealed carry. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/367 "2009-11-23T14:11:08Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What people have said is, “Well, why does the person need to carry in the host’s home?” They don’t need to, but that’s not the question. The fact is that they usually carry a gun, and as a host, I should have a decent reason for asking them to stop doing something that poses no threat or problem to me. They have a decent reason- carrying a gun may pose both a threat _and_ a problem. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/368 "2009-11-23T14:19:52Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > It does not matter where, if you remove another persons means of self defense, then you completely and totally assume responsiblity for their complete protection. The homeowner has 24-7 responsibility to completely protect all of his guests. Here’s a pro tip: If you feel so nervous about your personal safety when you can’t bring your gun into someone else’s house, just stay the fuck home. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/369 "2009-11-23T14:38:26Z")
Or leave the house, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/370 "2009-11-23T14:42:04Z")
Remember, a gun is nothing more than a tool. Unless, of course, you _must_ carry it everywhere you go-then it’s a fetish. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/371 "2009-11-23T14:52:10Z")
> [@Claude\_Remains](#): > > Once again I want to ask- How many of you John Wayne wannabe dildo’s have saved the day cause you just happen to be packin? Here you go: [http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/](http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/) Successfully using guns for self defense happens every single day, and I find your little comment rather ridiculous and rude. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/372 "2009-11-23T14:53:49Z")
> [@Claude\_Remains](#): > > Once again I want to ask- How many of you John Wayne wannabe dildo’s have saved the day cause you just happen to be packin? This is out of bounds for this forum. Don’t insult other posters. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/373 "2009-11-23T15:02:55Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You and I used to me on good terms, or so I thought. Now you seem to have an axe to grind against me. What could you possibly have to gain by picking at me even after I said I was done debating this issue? Did I do something to offend you? If it makes any difference, I admitted several pages ago that “pussy” was too strong a word and that maybe I was overly harsh about it. If that’s not good enough for you, what is? We both know that gun rights is not just an uphill battle, it’s more of an avalanche of people that would take them away. To not acquiesce something as simple as respecting a hosts wishes does not do those that supports our rights any favors. And, yes, you admitted that you would agree to the hosts wishes. Then you put the caveat on it that you would think less of them for it. And you did it in a very crude way. Suggesting that those that oppose your views are not ‘manly’. You put gun owners in a very, very poor light. And set those that support gun rights back a step. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/374 "2009-11-23T15:07:57Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > That was old school etiquette and now-a-days, it is much different and it’s pretty much, “my house, my rules” type of deal. Which is the way it has always been. Yeah, you try to make your guests comfortable, but you don’t let them do shit to your house. The smoking example is a perfect one. If they are stupid enough to smoke, it’s their problem. Hospitality does not extend to letting them make it be my problem. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/375 "2009-11-23T15:16:08Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Some of you folks need a mental readjustment cos you’re just not right in the head. Limit your comments to specific remarks by other posters. Do not hurl insults at other posters–not even vague and undifferentiated insults. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/376 "2009-11-23T15:54:02Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Which is the way it has always been. Yeah, you try to make your guests comfortable, but you don’t let them do shit to your house. The smoking example is a perfect one. If they are stupid enough to smoke, it’s their problem. Hospitality does not extend to letting them make it be my problem. I agree completely. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/377 "2009-11-23T15:59:29Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > Here you go: [http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/](http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/) > > Successfully using guns for self defense happens every single day, and I find your little comment rather ridiculous and rude. Anecdotes can have their place but in this case that is misleading. It is not surprising that someone, somewhere has successfully defended themself or another with a gun. The question is at what price does that protection come? Statistically it would seem more people are injured or die because people keep a gun for protection. > [@](#): > > Despite the widely held belief that guns are effective for protection, our results suggest that they actually pose a substantial threat to members of the household. People who keep guns in their homes appear to be at greater risk of homicide in the home than people who do not. Most of this risk is due to a substantially greater risk of homicide at the hands of a family member or intimate acquaintance. We did not find evidence of a protective effect of keeping a gun in the home, even in the small subgroup of cases that involved forced entry. > > Saltzman and colleagues recently found that assaults by family members or other intimate acquaintances with a gun are far more likely to end in death than those that involve knives or other weapons26. A gun kept in the home is far more likely to be involved in the death of a member of the household than it is to be used to kill in self-defense4. Cohort and interrupted time-series studies have demonstrated a strong link between the availability of guns and community rates of homicide2,15,16,17. Our study confirms this association at the level of individual households. > > Previous case-control research has demonstrated a strong association between the ownership of firearms and suicide in the home10,23,24. Also, unintentional shooting deaths can occur when children play with loaded guns they have found at home27. In the light of these observations and our present findings, people should be strongly discouraged from keeping guns in their homes. > > SOURCE: [The New England Journal of Medicine: Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home](http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/329/15/1084) ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/378 "2009-11-23T16:09:37Z")
One overlooked point (or perhaps I just overlooked it; it’s a big thread) is that people with concealed carry permits already have a number of places they legally cannot carry, such as police stations, schools, courthouses, civil administration buildings, bars/restaurants, etc. Responsible CCW holders should already have a “fallback,” as in, “I’m carrying today, but I can’t carry in this particular location, so I’m going to do ‘X’ with my carry.” Whether it’s locking it in the trunk, or leaving it at home, CCW holders already realize that there are a number of situations in which their _privelege_ is curtailed. YMMV by jurisdiction, of course, but to my knowledge, every CC area has limits to one degree or another on where/when you can carry. So NOT carrying in someone’s home should be no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/379 "2009-11-23T16:24:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Anecdotes can have their place but in this case that is misleading. It is not surprising that someone, somewhere has successfully defended themself or another with a gun. The question is at what price does that protection come? Statistically it would seem more people are injured or die because people keep a gun for protection. But that dated article is just as flawed, because it only considers _deaths_: [GunCite - Gun Control Web Site: A Gun in the Home](http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html) There are plenty of times you can shoot an intruder and it not kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226/380 "2009-11-23T16:57:14Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > But that dated article is just as flawed, because it only considers _deaths_: [GunCite - Gun Control Web Site: A Gun in the Home](http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html) There are plenty of times you can shoot an intruder and it not kill them. Or drive off an intruder without shooting them, or even firing a shot. I imagine that the vast majority of successful defensive uses of firearms involved simply making the attacker aware that the victim was/could be armed. Next most common would probably be situations where warning shots were fired, followed by situations where the attacker was wounded. I would expect that defensive situations where the attacker was killed would be very, very tiny, even if a thousand people every day successfully used a firearm to defend themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-to-ask-guest-to-leave-their-guns-at-home/518226.md?page=20)