Okay to ask guest to leave their guns at home?

Great Debates
321

Of course you have a right to determine what risks you want to take on in your home, regardless of how irrational or nonsensical they may be. There’s a chance you might get salmonella poisoning from eating undercooked turkey and stuffing, but I’d bet the host would incorrectly determine that to be a smaller risk and still serve turkey and stuffing to his/her guests. That’s your prerogative. However I’m just as justified to point out how small the relative risk is and how unjustified the homeowner’s absolute rule of no guns is. Still, I’d respect the homeowner’s request by not carrying or not going. It’s nothing I’d flippantly disregard and decide to carry anyway.

And regarding kids obtaining properly concealed firearms, I’d like to see a few examples or stories of such a thing, because I’ve never heard of it and it doesn’t make sense. Kids are much more likely to grab unsecured firearms from dad’s closet or mattress rather than somehow unarm an armed person (something they wouldn’t even know if it was properly concealed to begin with).

322

I might also add the story from a few years ago of the of-duty detective who fell asleep watching TV and his son lifted the firearm from his holster and wandered around the building with it. Didn’t shoot anyone, thankfully.

No, it’s totally unimaginable that a concealed weapon that no one knows about is going to cause any kind of significant risk . Because we all know that people who carry concealed firearms can never make mistakes. Ever. They never forget they are carrying. They never fall asleep.

That’s totally unimaginable. It could never happen.

The fact that someone who can’t even imagine such scenario is allowed to carry a weapon is terrifying. And the reason why I won’t let people into my house carrying weapons just because they tell me they are responsible. Someone who can’t even imagine that he might fall asleep while carrying is not capable of taking responsiblility for their weapon.

323

I haven’t changed anything that I’ve said. You seem to have difficulty reading what I actually wrote, though. You also appear not to have read the actual letter in question, even though I linked to it in post 286.

*I said it “It’s not clear whether the letter-writer actually believes her boyfriend’s uncle is mentally ill or if he’s just a garden variety jerk”. You have somehow concluded from this that he is definitely mentally ill, but I certainly did not say so.

You also seem to think that mentally ill people should be excluded from holiday gatherings in general, but many families do include mentally ill people, and most mentally ill people are no threat to others. There are “a hundred different ways” that ANYONE “can harm you or your kids, or otherwise spoil a family holiday.” Spoiling holidays is not a problem limited to the mentally ill.

*Yes, I quoted the letter-writer as saying she was scared and did not want this man interacting with her family. I have said nothing to contradict this. I was responding to your claim that the letter-writer has children, something that is neither in the letter nor in my post 286.

The scenario you describe in post 302, where a woman invites a mentally ill man to have dinner with her children, is something you have simply imagined. It does not come from anything I have written or from the actual letter. If the letter-writer had children she probably would have mentioned concern for her children in the letter. It wouldn’t be surprising for someone’s children to be present at a family Thanksgiving dinner, but the letter does not say that this will be the case. We have no way of knowing whether there will be children there or not.

324

A gun someone keeps in their unattended purse is not what I’m referring to when being “properly concealed” and on the person.

Again, not a very responsible gun owner (falling asleep with a loaded holstered gun on yourself), which I’ve been pushing all my examples about. I’m still waiting to see how a responsible, aware person carrying a properly concealed weapon could be magically unarmed by one of these ninja kids. You’ve given me two examples of highly irresponsible gun owners and their negligence resulting in a kid obtaining a firearm. Big deal. For every person like that there are many more who are responsible and such scenarios wouldn’t happen.

Still, if your point is that you have no way of determining who a responsible gun owner is (other than personally knowing the person well enough) and that’s the reason for banning guns from your house, it’s a slightly more rational reason.

325

Wow, it’s the No True Armed Scotsman argument.

326

Or, more likely, people like me determined that the befits of eating turkey and stuffing outweigh the risks, whereas that is not the case with people carrying firearms to defend themselves against killer turkeys.

Your whole argument here is totally preposterous. You’re saying that since being overweight is more dangerous than drink driving, anyone who is overweight is irrational if they avoid drink driving.

There’s no word for that but preposterous.

So you get to decide what behaviour I can considered justifiable in my own home?

See above.

As I said, the fact that you carry, yet can’t even imagine that you might fall asleep while carrying or make any other mistake terrifies me more than anything.

Right. And they are much more likely to drown in a pool than to shoot themselves with an unsecured firearm. So if you have a pool you’re obliged to have unsecured firearms lying around the house as well.

This whole argument is ridiculous. It’s a total non sequitur. Just because A is more dangerous than B, that doesn’t mean that I’m obliged to multiply the risk by practicing both A *and * B.

Yes, because we all know that children are not at all inquisitive and they are never prone to exploring pockets or bags. So if a weapon is properly concealed in a bag or pocket a child could never know it was there. Never. Under any circumstances. I can’t even imagine how they could find out.

Oh, unless someone made a mistake, like all humans do. And they fell asleep. Or they left the bag unattended.

But no, that’s unimaginable apparently. Totally unimaginable.

327

Exactly. He’s blatantly put a kilt on his responsible gun owner.

Brandon even you must see how invalid this. You ask for examples of where a responsible concealed carrier has put others at risk. And when I give you examples you say that those people weren’t responsible… because they put people at risk.

It’s a textbook True Scotsman, and that, my friend, is completely illogical and irrational. And I say that matte rof opinion but as a matter of confirmed fact.
One of these people was a judge, the other was police detective. If they weren’t responsible then who the hell could be?

328

Considering I only carry when out in public (and only then its only occasionally) and I’m not a narcoleptic, I don’t find myself randomly falling asleep in public. What other mistake could I make with a properly secured and holstered firearm that’s buried within my clothing? Go ahead, I’ll wait to see what kind of scenario you can dream up.

No, it means life is full of risks and you just have to consider what the most major ones are, which I don’t consider a responsible gun owner carrying a concealed weapon to be. If one were to compile a list of all accidental shootings in this country, I’d be confident that an overwhelming majority of them occurred from a kid getting an unlocked or unsecured weapon from their house or a friend’s house, not from an armed adult who’s carrying a concealed weapon.

Leaving a gun in an unattended bag is not what I’m talking about, and is something only a completely oblivious and irresponsible gun owner would do. I’m only referring to people who don’t randomly fall asleep in public that are properly carrying a concealed weapon. A kid would have to do some major groping to me to determine that I was carrying a weapon. And even if the did discover it, there’s no way they could take it without me preventing it or stopping them. It’s ridiculous what you’re trying to say. Unless you’ve personally carried a concealed weapon, you have no say in this matter whatsoever becuase you’re not aware of the difficulty level of determine the position and subsequently removing a concealed weapon.

I can’t speak for other concealed weapon owners, but I don’t make “mistakes” that result in my firearm being out of my sight or somehow accessible by kids. Period.

329

Let’s stay on point, shall we? We’re not suggesting that you might fall asleep while waiting for the bus. However, we are suggesting that even gasp a responsible gun owner might fall asleep in an armchair after a big Thanksgiving dinner.

330

And that argument is just as meaningless. This guy was a DEA agent. If he’s not responsible, then who could be?! :rolleyes:

331

Even should this happen, it’d be irrelevant for me at least. My concealed firearm is often on my back secured to my pants. How a kid is going to dig between the chair and my body and somehow obtain the weapon they don’t know (without me waking up) about is beyond me. That risk, continues to be as minimal as minimal gets.

332

No, you can’t speak for other concealed weapon carriers, but I have yet to meet one that didn’t make the exact same claim as yours.
So tell us-what is so special about you as opposed to everyone else, and if you are not special, are you saying that we should accept all the other owners claims of being incapable of making mistakes?
Are you the Only True Scotsman?

333

This would seem to be the key point here. You’re making this thread about you, and it isn’t.

334

No, just too obscure. WTF?

335

Except that we are very specifically not discussing you carrying in public. We are discussing you carrying in my private home, during and after a large turkey dinner.

So what relevance does your behaviour in public have to the discussion?

I don’t need to imagine any more. You said that you couldn’t even imagine a single one. Now that it has been established that such things are not just imaginable, but actually happen, my point is proved. Your inability to even imagine such a thing happening is evidence that you are incapable of being responsible for your weapon.

Well we are all in total agreement on this. Isn’t that nice?

Now what the heck is your point? Nobody in this thread has ever suggested that gun owner carrying a concealed weapon is one othe major risks in life.

Yep, and like I said, if one were to compile a list of all accidental deaths in this country, I’d be confident that an overwhelming majority of them occurred from motor vehicle accidents, not from unsecured firearms.

So according to your “logic” anyone who has a car is obliged to have unsecured firearms lying around as well. Because once a large risk exists it makes no sense at all to remove any smaller risks.

Oh hang on. Yes it fricken’ does!

No matter how many big risks exist it doesn’t mean you are obliged to multiply it by allowing in smaller risks as well.

What kind of noodle logic ever made you think otherwise?

And you know this because they eat sugar with their porridge, right? Or do you perchance have some method of determining responsibility that isn’t completely self-referential?

Coz if you don’t this is the most blatant true Scotsman I’ve ever seen on these boards.

So difficult that small children can do it apparently.

So you do think you are infallible. That’s what I thought.

Truly terrifying.

336

So you’ve gone from “It’s impossible for me to make such a mistake. It’s impossible for me to even imagine making such a mistake” to “The risk of me making such a mistake is minimal”.

So now you’ve admitted the risk of you making that mistake exists, I ask again: Who are you to decide what risks should accept in my own house?

337

You know, that’s a damn good point, and I’d like Brandon to address it.

Can you perhaps point out all these people who admitted that they were careless and irresponsible gun owners prior to having accidents with their weapons? Can you point to a single person today, who hasn’t had an accident, who is claiming that they are irresponsible but carry anyway?

If you can’t then how exactly do you know that you are more responsible, less fallible and less accident prone than them?

Your whole position here clearly hinges on a True Scotsman.

338

The woman who wrote the letter that inspired this thread does not trust that her boyfriend’s uncle is a responsible gun owner. The letter does not say that he keeps his weapons concealed, so it’s possible that he prefers to open carry. The letter-writer doesn’t say where she lives, but in several US states one doesn’t even need a special permit to open carry. Or he might carry concealed but enjoy pulling his gun out to show it off. Since the letter-writer doesn’t know the uncle well but is aware that he normally carries a gun, it doesn’t seem that he’s especially discreet about it.

It may be that a responsible gun owner carrying a concealed weapon is not a great risk to others, but such people are not the only gun owners in the world. I wouldn’t trust that everyone who owns a gun is always careful with it. The letter-writer obviously dislikes and distrusts her boyfriend’s uncle, so why should she have faith that he’s mastered proper gun safety procedures? Since she emphasizes that the uncle scares her and that she wouldn’t have chosen to spend time with him at all, it seems that her concern is not that there’s some possibility of a freak accident but rather that the uncle might start brandishing or even firing the gun at the party.

That you trust yourself with a gun is beside the point. The situation in question is one where the homeowner does not trust the gun owner to be responsible.

339

Why?

Good question. What’s your answer?

Seriously. What’s your answer? If a Judge, a police Detective and a DEA firearm safety instructor can’t be considered responsible then who can we consider responsible, and why?

What is your basis for deciding who is a responsible person. If the only criterion you have is that anybody who has an accident that places others at risk is irresponsible, then you’re engaging a textbook True Scotsman.

340

I would like to see just one story from the millions of CCW holders where a child has taken a loaded gun out of a carrier’s secured holster, and ended up shooting someone with it. Just one. I’ll take anecdotal data even.

You might as well worry about a meteor falling on your house during dinner. The hysterics when it comes to guns amazes me.