# Olbermann calls for Bush & Cheney to resign **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 4, 2007, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513 "2007-07-04T18:00:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/121 "2007-07-05T18:29:28Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] No matter what he does nothing is as damaging as resigning office, there’s no way Congressional Republicans have even suggested he resign. [/QUOTE] What would be “damaging” about that? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/122 "2007-07-05T18:33:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What would be “damaging” about that? [/QUOTE] C’mon, **BG** , a president resigning when no formal complaint has been lodged against him? It would be a declaration that he had committed some wrong or botched the job or lost the capacity to lead (or more than one or all of the above). Whatever your feelings about Bush, you have to recognize that such an act would “damage” his reputation as well as harming the Republican Party. Even if, in your view, it would be an act of correction or healing for the nation, it would still be a “damaging” act. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/123 "2007-07-05T18:47:04Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Oh, it will take some set up, that’s for sure. I’ll probably have them read a variety of editorials beforehand, or put together a packet of readings as a handout for the assignment. [snip] They get propaganda from both ends of the spectrum. If you can’t tell when your own peole are lying to you, how do you expect to be able to tell when the other people are? [/QUOTE] Of course, the editorials are a good step, though I still fail to see how this is anything other than any ethical issue. (If you reallly want to talk about ethics in politics, why not start with _The Prince_ or, hell, the _Declaration of Independence_?) But I really don’t see how showing propaganda to your students will do anything other than encourage academic laziness where actual content could do much, much more. Moreover, please do consider my student’s perspective that you will have a very hard time trying not to look like you’re preaching, in particular if you show this particular rant in the very first class. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/124 "2007-07-05T18:49:02Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] C’mon, **BG** , a president resigning when no formal complaint has been lodged against him? It would be a declaration that he had committed some wrong or botched the job or lost the capacity to lead (or more than one or all of the above). Whatever your feelings about Bush, you have to recognize that such an act would “damage” his reputation as well as harming the Republican Party. Even if, in your view, it would be an act of correction or healing for the nation, it would still be a “damaging” act. [/QUOTE] Sure, Tom, it would be great if Bush were to resign. But it’s a stupid point, because _he isn’t going to do so_, and if some event were to occur that would cause him to do so, said event would have jack shit to do with Olbermann going on a moralistic tear. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/125 "2007-07-05T19:22:38Z")
For an education class awhile ago, I wrote up a lesson for fifth graders on the use of propaganda. I divided students (my college classmates pretending to be fifth graders) into four groups and had each group discuss this highly opinionated article on Tom Delay’s indictment. They answered a set of questions along the lines of, “What was the author’s opinion about the crime?” “How did the author communicate this opinion?” “What ‘dirty tricks,’ if any, did the author use in trying to persuade you to share his opinion?” “What do you think about Tom Delay’s indictment?” After the groups had each discussed the questions and answered them, they formed new groups comprising one member from each of the previous groups. At this point they discovered that each of the first groups had read a different article from a different perspective (a WSJ editorial, a NYT editorial, a leftwing humorist, and Tom Delay’s statement). I’d kinda like to do a lesson like this with high school students and with Scoot’s commutation. I think Olbermann’s essay would be a good piece of such a lesson. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/126 "2007-07-05T19:48:44Z")
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308] It’s all meaningless chatter and conjecture. If someone has proof he broke a law that requires he be impeached, then shut the fuck up and DO it already. The Pubbies managed to get it done to Clinton, what’s the hold up Dems? Huh? Got nothin? OK, be pissy pants about it, but grow the fuck up, stop begging for TV time to shout from the rooftops about how wrong pardoning this twit was, show us something illegal he did, then ACT ON IT. [/QUOTE] This brings to mind a Doonesbury comic from back in the Nixon days. Two investigators are listening to Nixon’s tapes. One laments to the other about there being a lack of a smoking gun and the other one says, “Yeah, if only he’d knock over a liquor store or something, then we’d have him!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/127 "2007-07-05T19:56:30Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] For an education class awhile ago, I wrote up a lesson for fifth graders on the use of propaganda. I divided students (my college classmates pretending to be fifth graders) into four groups and had each group discuss this highly opinionated article on Tom Delay’s indictment. They answered a set of questions along the lines of, “What was the author’s opinion about the crime?” “How did the author communicate this opinion?” “What ‘dirty tricks,’ if any, did the author use in trying to persuade you to share his opinion?” “What do you think about Tom Delay’s indictment?” After the groups had each discussed the questions and answered them, they formed new groups comprising one member from each of the previous groups. At this point they discovered that each of the first groups had read a different article from a different perspective (a WSJ editorial, a NYT editorial, a leftwing humorist, and Tom Delay’s statement). I’d kinda like to do a lesson like this with high school students and with Scoot’s commutation. I think Olbermann’s essay would be a good piece of such a lesson. Daniel [/QUOTE] I agree. Olbermann is a political analyst and he host a show that is analysis, not news. Presenting students with several different perspectives on the same subject can help them formulate their own ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/128 "2007-07-05T19:56:59Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] I disagree. I don’t think one can abuse a power which is by its very nature completely under your discretion. [/QUOTE] So, what you’re saying is that it’s impossible for a dictator to abuse his authority, because there is no legal limit on his authority? Because that’s a remarkably stupid thing to say, if indeed that’s what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/129 "2007-07-05T20:10:21Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] So, what you’re saying is that it’s impossible for a dictator to abuse his authority, because there is no legal limit on his authority? [/quote] Not if the dictator’s a Republican! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/130 "2007-07-05T20:14:45Z")
[QUOTE=zamboniracer] This brings to mind a Doonesbury comic from back in the Nixon days. Two investigators are listening to Nixon’s tapes. One laments to the other about there being a lack of a smoking gun and the other one says, “Yeah, if only he’d knock over a liquor store or something, then we’d have him!” [/QUOTE] Or the strip about John Mitchell, where Mark proclaimed: “Everything known to date could lead one to conclude that he’s guilty. That’s guilty, guilty, guilty!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/131 "2007-07-05T20:19:53Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, the president becomes more like Gordon Brown, who can be removed at any time by a vote of no confidence. What’s wrong with that? [/QUOTE] No, he cannot. A vote of non confidence _dissolves Parliament_ and triggers an election (in simple terms.) It doesn’t just remove Gordon Brown, it removes every single MP, including all the ones who voted for the non-confidence motion. A non confidence motion has a completely different purpose than an impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/132 "2007-07-05T20:28:55Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] No, he cannot. A vote of non confidence _dissolves Parliament_ and triggers an election (in simple terms.) It doesn’t just remove Gordon Brown, it removes every single MP, including all the ones who voted for the non-confidence motion. [/QUOTE] :eek: That would be AWESOME! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/133 "2007-07-05T20:54:29Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] I disagree. I don’t think one can abuse a power which is by its very nature completely under your discretion. [/QUOTE] So, if Clinton had pardoned Tim McVeigh, your response would’ve been: “Meh. He is the president, after all.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/134 "2007-07-05T21:06:17Z")
[QUOTE=furt] Um hum. And no doubt you’d say the same if someone was proposing to play a Rush Limbaugh monologue. If he was giving another, equally forceful argument to the contrary, he’d be challenging them to think. By just showing one view – especially on the first day of class – the de facto result is that many students are going to draw the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that the prof is an ideologue, and accordingly keep their dissenting opinions to themselves. [/QUOTE] I’m assuming there is going to be a class discussion afterwards, and Olbermann’s words won’t be taken as holy writ. Given that, a Rush monologue that brought up equally important issues would be a good thing to play. I’m sure that there are errors in logic in the monologue, which should be brought out even if he agrees. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/135 "2007-07-05T21:11:57Z")
[QUOTE=Great Dave] So, if Clinton had pardoned Tim McVeigh, your response would’ve been: “Meh. He is the president, after all.” [/QUOTE] What if Bush pardoned Hitler? What about that, smart guy? Yeah, now you got nothin’. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/136 "2007-07-05T21:41:20Z")
[QUOTE=straight man] Let me leave aside the rather pittable notion that only an anti-academic student could object to Olbermann’s presence in a US Gov. classroom. [/quote] There is quite a lot of resentment among some students and parents at a student being exposed to ideas and concepts the parents don’t approve of. This applies to science teaching and sex education also. In the current school situation, a student who does not like to think might do quite well on tests designed to assess how much he has memorized. I didn’t imply that the student was stupid or anti-academic - only anti-intellectual. > [@](#): > > Allow me to avoid a deeper investigation of the irony in your belief that Olbermann’s ideological “rant” (from the OP) is a conduit for deeper thinking. Let us even ignore the assertion that the quote, “I didn’t vote for him, but he’s my president, and I hope he does a good job” is the “essence of democracy.” Instead, I will assert that Olbermann’s rant is unrelated to American government (the class), noting that the question of tone is separate and the basis of my greater objection. (IOW, we were having a nice old bashfest when a debate suddenly sprung up!) > > I’m not a Republican, nor especially conservative (by American standards; I am in fact a foreigner with a green card.) I certainly don’t object to dislike of George Bush per se, though I am troubled by how little self-reflection and solution-finding comes from people like Olbermann (let’s face it; “Bush, Cheney should resign” isn’t a solution when it is eminently obvious that they will not do so, regardless of what the public thinks.) No, the trouble here is that Olbermann’s argument isn’t really about American government. Consider his statement: > > Olbermann follows with an argument whose thesis is essentially: > > The Constitution of the United States does not include any recourse for someone who chooses to be partisan instead of presidential. Our mode of government places no value on why members of government do what they do. Instead, we have a balance of power, based on action and response, from the veto and overruling to conviction and pardon. Olbermann does not cite any manner in which Bush has overstepped his bounds of power or even damaging the structure, a charge which could have merit; he merely charges him with having bad motives. While that charge is entirely valid, it is also entirely ethical in nature. [I would flesh out this point a bit more, were it not 3:30am. Sorry.] Olbermann is correct about the Constitution, which was written before there were political parties. The original way of selecting a President and Vice President was more like the way a school club might, and went down in flames in 1800. Because of this, there has always been a certain degree of restraint in dealing with the opposition. I don’t watch Olbermann, except for a few clips from time to time, but I rather suspect the bill of particulars had been covered in the past. He did mention how Bush betrayed the near universal support he got after 9/11, turning it into partisan advantage. So that is how he described the overstepping of bounds. Anyone can dredge up a hundred more examples, he didn’t have time. As for the remedy - what else would you suggest. As has been mentioned impeachment is not politically possible. A call to resign has a long tradition. There were many calls for Rummy to resign before he finally got fired. The New Yorker I just got started off with an attack on Cheney which makes Olbermann look moderate. This is the way politicians are made to listen. A few years ago, Cindy Sheehan seemed a wild-eyed loon - now her position is mainstream. > [@](#): > > Indeed, Olbermann’s link to Nixon underscores the purely ethical nature of his “rant”. > But of course, the president was not impeached for firing an investigator; that was completely legal and well within his Constitutional powers. It merely prompted a deeper investigation of the_actual crime_ that he committed. In much the same way, Bush used a power granted absolutely by the Constitution; if he did something bad, it was bad _only ethically_. Congress could no more touch Nixon or Bush for being unethical than they could for being ugly; if Nixon resigned over the firing of an investigator (he didn’t, but let’s pretend he did), his resignation resolved an ethical, not Constitutional, crisis; the complaint that “he was the law” does not imply the overthrowal of the judiciary so much as it implies the ethical misuse of power. Olbermann can only protest that there is a _right_ thing to do, not that there is any Constitutional recourse for shitheadedness. Olbermann didn’t say that either action was illegal or unconstitutional. Instead he said both actions (Libby and Cox) were indicative of a president no longer caring for the rule of law, and served as a flashpoint, to cause public support to corrode. I don’t know if Nixon would have been convicted or not. But the government was practically frozen during the investigation, and it would have been frozen during an impeachment. Nixon cared enough not to put the country through that. Does Bush? Unlikely. > [@](#): > > The moral nature of Olbermann’s argument is important simply because an understanding of American government is distinct from an understanding of morality in the same way that an understanding of Christian theology is distinct from actually believing Christian theology. That is to say: we can (and Olbermann does) discuss whether Bush’s actions were despicable all day without ever really talking about the American governmental systems within which these actions occurred. Inasmuch as American Government (the class) has nothing > > (Why I would write a complaint to the principal really does have to wait until **silenus** has answered my two questions; it is entirely possible that he had some unstated intent that I missed entirely, in which case he deserves an apology. I try to take topics one at a time.) But government, and politics, is far more than reading the constitution and memorizing the names of Cabinet departments. The system works not just by laws, but by a set of ethical principles. Americans mostly pay taxes voluntarily. Political leaders mostly don’t stash money in Swiss bank accounts. Presidents used to listen to many voices. The majority respected the minority in Congress. Votes are usually not strict party line ones. The balance of power is beyond the strictly constitutional one between branches, but also includes the ethos of a president being one for all the people. Bush even gave lip service to this in 2000. I’m not aware of any high level leader pushing for a “permanent majority” before. That’s the direction of dictatorship, and the lack of oversight a permanent majority implies leads to corruption. Now, if that’s not a good topic for a discussion, I don’t know what is. Maybe Silenus intended to show it and say “Bush is a poopyhead” - but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/137 "2007-07-05T21:46:26Z")
What grates is not that the President excused the sentence of someone who did something illegal in the employ of the Executive. So it is basically a case of the President saying, “Go ahead and do it, if you get caught,we got you covered.” The President essentially excused the crime that benefitted him, or at least was supposed to. As long as we are throwing out “What Ifs”…What f Libby was convicted of kidnapping and torturing an opponent of the President, found guilty and then pardoned. Extreme, certainly, but it wouldbe distasteful and raise concerns. Where do we draw the line? Which crimes, commmitted to benefit the President, are fine to be excused? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/138 "2007-07-05T21:49:37Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Last I checked ignoring the illegality of something doesn’t make it legal. Maybe I’m wrong, though. [/QUOTE] [hijack] Interestingly, ignoring the illegality of something _does_ make it legal under the right circumstances. It’s called the doctrine of desuetude. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/139 "2007-07-05T22:00:28Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] You were obviously asleep or out to lunch during the Miers nomination if you don’t think Democrats opposed it. [/QUOTE] Opposing is different from killing. I haven’t read the WaPo series on Cheney, but based on the New Yorker quote from it, Miers was not on Cheney’s list of approved Supreme Court appointees. Bush tried to appoint someone he wanted, Cheney had a fit, and he wound up appointing Alito who was on the list. Remember the objection to Miers was that she wasn’t right wing enough. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513/140 "2007-07-05T22:26:04Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] So, what you’re saying is that it’s impossible for a dictator to abuse his authority, because there is no legal limit on his authority? Because that’s a remarkably stupid thing to say, if indeed that’s what you’re saying. [/QUOTE] For a sharp guy such as yourself, I see that’s its taken you a while to get The Straight Dope on **MH**. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olbermann-calls-for-bush-cheney-to-resign/410513.md?page=8)