# Old & Busted: Is healthcare a right? New Hotness: Is food a right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922 "2017-06-02T12:32:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/41 "2017-06-02T15:49:11Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The man’s question was “Is every American entitled to eat?” in those six words. It boggles the mind that you can try to frame it as a “proxy” for a politically loaded question. It shouldn’t boggle anyone’s mind. The question arose as a follow-up to: “Trump’s proposal to make vast cuts to food stamps.” See the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/42 "2017-06-02T15:52:23Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > It was not a loaded question. And he didn’t answer it in a “loaded” way. He didn’t answer it at all, because he didn’t want to expose his fanny. God forbid he should alienate any of his voters by agreeing to a simple fact: people have a right to eat. Period. Since WHEN is that a controversial topic?? Holy crap. Asked alone, it’s not. Asked immediately after a question about “Trump’s proposal to make vast cuts to food stamps,” it is a loaded question. It’s true, of course, that he didn’t answer it because he didn’t want to expose his fanny. But what his fanny feared was getting gotcha’d by the apparent contrast: if you say people have a right to food, how can you favor Trump’s proposal to make vast cuts to food stamps? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/43 "2017-06-02T15:53:29Z")
He’s a wily old bird: he knows that in similar circumstances the heavens opened and God provided all the manna you can eat at no cost whatsoever to the taxpayer. All poor Americans have to do, after exhausting all other possibilities up to and including prostituting their first-born, is to keep the faith, stare up at the sky with mouths ready to receive, and _wait_. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/44 "2017-06-02T15:56:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Or, we do what we’ve done…we, as a society, have chosen not to allow citizens to starve, while not saying they have a right to the food. I don’t believe that Canada is any different in this respect…or, perhaps you could show me where it’s a right that Canadian citizens have to food somewhere? I haven’t seen it codified anywhere except perhaps as a sound bite from some politicians. > [@Bone](#): > > Everyone has a right to eat food they legally acquire, but they do not have the right to go the grocery store and take food from the shelves without permission, go into any random restaurant and take food without permission, go into other people’s homes and take their food without permission, eat steak and lobster every meal, or go into other people’s wallets and take their money without permission. > > Alternatively, he could have been more flip and said, “Everyone has a right to eat - that means you’re buying me lunch right? Dinner too? For the next 20 years?” > [@XT](#): > > Again, we as a society have chosen not to allow people to starve. This doesn’t give them a right to food, however…it means society choose to GIVE them food because we don’t want them to starve. A right means they can go and take any food they want because, well, it’s their right. I guess you could say they have the ‘right’ to whatever food levels society chooses to give them, but I don’t think that puts in in the realm of ‘right’ at that point. Obviously, YMMV. OK, these comments suggest that we don’t all have the same understanding of what a “right” is, and that some of you are using a narrow legalistic interpretation and specifically one that is borrowed from the US Bill of Rights. But the word also has a broader meaning, such as in “basic human right”, which is how I and others here mean it. This is the kind of right that is enumerated in, for example, the [UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights](http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/), in which Article 25 states: Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. Such a right conveys, not an individual legal right, but rather a collective societal moral obligation to each of its citizens that is incumbent on any civilized society. Which is pretty much what I said earlier, but I see now that we’re working with slightly different definitions. However, such a human right and consequent societal obligation is no less important to the fabric of a free, peaceful, and moral society than the narrower set of constitutional legal rights. ---
**Author:** ![greenmario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/97f17d/32.png) [@greenmario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenmario)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/45 "2017-06-02T15:56:46Z")
I’m not against food stamps, but I have to disagree with the idea that removing the program infringes on anyone’s rights. The same goes for public education or sidewalks. These are things that we have agreed for the most part that the government should provide for society to function at a high level. We can argue about what level should be provided but framing it as a rights issue seems silly. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/46 "2017-06-02T15:58:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It shouldn’t boggle anyone’s mind. The question arose as a follow-up to: “Trump’s proposal to make vast cuts to food stamps.” See the OP. Can we agree that food stamps are how we currently ensure that those who cannot afford food don’t starve, and that that’s a socially desirable objective in America? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/47 "2017-06-02T16:01:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I believe Republicans would be more than happy to renege on the decision not to allow starvation. So what? Even if this is true, and I rather doubt it, it’s moot until and unless they gain so overwhelming a level of elected positions across the board they can’t do it…and basically, if they do it means the country has so changed that it would be the wills of a huge majority. I don’t see that ever happening (quite the opposite, in fact, as I think the current upswell in Republican sentiment is going to be sunk by this one term of Trump’s). ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/48 "2017-06-02T16:07:24Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > …This is the kind of right that is enumerated in, for example, the [UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights](http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/), in which Article 25 states: > Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. > … Well, this simple statement would NEVER fly with today’s Republican party. And anyone who supported it would immediately be labeled a snowflake libtard crybaby SJW. “Adequate”?? That word alone would lead to hours upon hours of debate. Well, Hoovervilles were adequate, weren’t they? ETA. Trump’s next move will probably be to pull the USA out of the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/49 "2017-06-02T16:07:36Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > OK, these comments suggest that we don’t all have the same understanding of what a “right” is, and that some of you are using a narrow legalistic interpretation and specifically one that is borrowed from the US Bill of Rights. But the word also has a broader meaning, such as in “basic human right”, which is how I and others here mean it. This is the kind of right that is enumerated in, for example, the [UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights](http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/), in which Article 25 states: > Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. > Such a right conveys, not an individual legal right, but rather a collective societal moral obligation to each of its citizens that is incumbent on any civilized society. Which is pretty much what I said earlier, but I see now that we’re working with slightly different definitions. However, such a human right and consequent societal obligation is no less important to the fabric of a free, peaceful, and moral society than the narrower set of constitutional legal rights. Are countries like Haiti in violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights for their failure to provide food stamps? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/50 "2017-06-02T16:11:55Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > You appear to be obfuscating a very simple issue, or maybe I’m missing your point. A civilized society, if it is to call itself civilized, has at least minimal obligations for basic subsistence to all of its citizens regardless of their economic means. One can argue about the extent of those obligations, but the right to eat is surely about as basic as it gets. You must either be prepared to support that as a right or be prepared to condone starvation or some other gruesome alternative. This is not a complicated philosophical proposition. OK, so you do want to win by claiming your definition is the only one that reasonable people can have. That’s fine, but then I don’t see much reason to continue the debate. We have different definitions of what a right is. I recognize that your definition is OK, but not the only one. You are unwilling to recognize any definition but your own. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/51 "2017-06-02T16:12:38Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Can we agree that food stamps are how we currently ensure that those who cannot afford food don’t starve, and that that’s a socially desirable objective in America? Compound question. ‘Can we agree that food stamps are how we currently ensure that those who cannot afford food don’t starve?’ Answer: no. Food stamps are merely one way we deliver food to those that cannot afford it so they don’t starve. ‘…and that that’s a socially desirable objective in America?’ Answer: It’s a socially desirable objective to ensure people don’t starve, but not a socially desirable objective to continue the current food stamp program unmodified. Your use of the compound question made the meaning of the word _that_ ambiguous: was “that” preventing starvation, or was “that” the food stamp program? Undoubtedly purely accidental, yes? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/52 "2017-06-02T16:15:30Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > OK, these comments suggest that we don’t all have the same understanding of what a “right” is, and that some of you are using a narrow legalistic interpretation and specifically one that is borrowed from the US Bill of Rights. But the word also has a broader meaning, such as in “basic human right”, which is how I and others here mean it. This is the kind of right that is enumerated in, for example, the [UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights](http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/), in which Article 25 states: > Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. > Such a right conveys, not an individual legal right, but rather a collective societal moral obligation to each of its citizens that is incumbent on any civilized society. Which is pretty much what I said earlier, but I see now that we’re working with slightly different definitions. However, such a human right and consequent societal obligation is no less important to the fabric of a free, peaceful, and moral society than the narrower set of constitutional legal rights. A societal ‘moral obligation’, to me, means a contract to ensure society is bound to provide those (pretty vague) things…which to me DOES have connotations of a legal right. Otherwise, it’s just a fluff statement. I agree that (rich) modern nation states and their societies SHOULD (and do in every case I know of) provide a safety net of some kind, ensure people don’t starve and have basic necessities to get back on their feet or move ahead in life…but I don’t believe that they are obliged to do so by anything more than because it’s the will of their people to do so. Every nation sets its bar differently on when and how it wants to do this…and that bar is set by their citizens, the people living in that society. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/53 "2017-06-02T16:24:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m on a war against “the rest of us,” as any kind of a useful phrase in debate. > > What’s the answer to YOU? The answer to me is Yes, of course Americans have the right to eat. Abraham Lincoln said “even the black man has the right to put into his own mouth, the bread his own hands have earned.” Unfortunately, that has little to do with the food stamp program, because it is the bread that someone else’s hands have earned. Feeding the hungry does not involve a right of the hungry to receive food. It involves a duty of the rest of us (sorry) to provide it. Simon is making the common liberal mistake of assuming “I have the right to X” means “I have the right to receive X from the government”. Had Smith said anything of the sort, Simon would have presented the story as “Smith doesn’t think Americans have the right to eat, and would like to see them starve rather than raise taxes on the rich”. Which was the point of Simon’s question in the first place, and some in this thread have reacted as Simon intended. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/54 "2017-06-02T16:26:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Your use of the compound question made the meaning of the word _that_ ambiguous: was “that” preventing starvation, or was “that” the food stamp program? Undoubtedly purely accidental, yes? Poor phrasing: “That” = preventing starvation. > [@Bricker](#): > > Compound question. > > ‘Can we agree that food stamps are how we currently ensure that those who cannot afford food don’t starve?’ > > Answer: no. Food stamps are merely one way we deliver food to those that cannot afford it so they don’t starve. Agreed, and it wasn’t my intention to imply it was the only means. But it is a fairly well established gov’t program with a well defined objective, i.e. ensure people don’t starve. > [@Bricker](#): > > ‘…and that that’s a socially desirable objective in America?’ > > Answer: It’s a socially desirable objective to ensure people don’t starve, but not a socially desirable objective to continue the current food stamp program unmodified. Then I would think that the congress critter should have been able to answer the question without tying himself up in knots and sounding like he’s okay with letting people starve. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/55 "2017-06-02T16:26:13Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > But the word also has a broader meaning, such as in “basic human right”, which is how I and others here mean it. This is the kind of right that is enumerated in, for example, the [UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights](http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/), in which Article 25 states: I reject the authority of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Separately, in the context of the interview, it doesn’t seem like the UN idea of rights was what was being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/56 "2017-06-02T16:30:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Feeding the hungry does not involve a right of the hungry to receive food. It involves a duty of the rest of us (sorry) to provide it. Aren’t you splitting hairs here a little too fine? The food stamp program, funded by tax payers, is exactly that - the execution of our duty to provide food to those not able to pay for it and thus starve. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/57 "2017-06-02T16:30:26Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Then I would think that the congress critter should have been able to answer the question without tying himself up in knots and sounding like he’s okay with letting people starve. Look how complex my answer to you needed to be. And I had the benefit of typing and editing before posting. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/58 "2017-06-02T16:31:33Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Aren’t you splitting hairs here a little too fine? > > The food stamp program, funded by tax payers, is exactly that - the execution of our duty to provide food to those not able to pay for it and thus starve. It is, to be sure. But it’s not the only way, nor likely even the best way. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/59 "2017-06-02T16:34:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Look how complex my answer to you needed to be. And I had the benefit of typing and editing before posting. Sure. Made even easier by the fact that you didn’t need to continue licking Trumps boots in the process. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922/60 "2017-06-02T16:38:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Does anyone advocate people stealing from grocery stores? Does anyone advocate stealing from restaurants? Does anyone advocate marauders going into peoples’ homes and taking their food? Does anyone advocate steak and lobster for the poor for every mea? Does anyone advocate having people go into people’s wallets? And people wonder why there’s a shortage of straw. > > The question is: Person A can’t afford to buy food. Should he be allowed to starve? The answer is it depends. If society can’t or doesn’t produce enough food it doesn’t matter what people’s opinions are. Do North Koreans or Venezuelans have human rights like the so-called right to eat? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-busted-is-healthcare-a-right-new-hotness-is-food-a-right/787922.md?page=4)