# Old Law and Order Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 5, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415 "2009-05-05T14:11:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/1 "2009-05-05T14:11:06Z")
I only got to see the Lenny Briscoe episodes in reruns. They had a continuing story arc where Lenny’s daughter got killed by her drug dealer. Then there was a suspect who offered to kill the drug dealer if Lenny got rid of some evidence against him for some crime. Lenny didn’t immediately react, and it was sort of left up in the air what happened. Was that plot point ever resolved? If so, how? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/2 "2009-05-05T14:36:57Z")
The drug dealer ended up dying from a heroin overdose. Closure, sort of. Damn I loved Lenny. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/3 "2009-05-05T16:11:29Z")
I thought the drug dealer was killed by cops in another precinct. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/4 "2009-05-05T16:25:24Z")
The episode wherein this gets ‘resolved’ is called [Hate](http://www.tv.com/law-and-order/hate/episode/9668/summary.html). You could try looking it up. Honestly, I don’t remember the storyline all that well, though I think it was one of the few instances where deviating form the standard _L&O_ script actually worked. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/5 "2009-05-05T17:10:07Z")
Whatever, Lenny didn’t take the offer. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/6 "2009-05-05T17:37:06Z")
I could have sworn Lenny had the guy killed. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/7 "2009-05-05T18:32:12Z")
I’m still trying to wrap my head around the concept that L&O with Jerry Orbach is “old.” What about Paul Sorvino, Chris Noth, Michael Moriarty? Now _those_ are old!! ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/8 "2009-05-05T18:46:50Z")
Orbach’s been gone for 5 years, was on for 13 years before he left, and the arc in question is 9 or 10 years old. Even 5 years is a pretty long time in TV terms…especially on Law & Order where at least 4 detectives have come since Orbach left (Fontana, Cassiday, Lupo and Bernard). I’m pretty sure Brisco was still partnered with Curtis at the time, making 5 detective changes since then (Curtis swapped for Green before Orbach left, and Fontana replaced Brisco). Gods know how many personnel have come and gone in the DA’s apartment - has anybody but McCoy stayed there more than a season since Schiff was voted out? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/9 "2009-05-05T18:47:00Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I’m still trying to wrap my head around the concept that L&O with Jerry Orbach is “old.” What about Paul Sorvino, Chris Noth, Michael Moriarty? Now _those_ are old!! **ivylass** , you realize that Jerry Orbach was on from the third season onward? The first senior detective left after the first season. Paul Sorvino was in the second and part of the third, only to be replaced by Orbach. Orbach was on many of the “old” ones. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/10 "2009-05-05T18:51:11Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I’m still trying to wrap my head around the concept that L&O with Jerry Orbach is “old.” What about Paul Sorvino, Chris Noth, Michael Moriarty? Now _those_ are old!! They’re not only from the last century, but the last millennium! ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/11 "2009-05-05T19:26:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > **ivylass** , you realize that Jerry Orbach was on from the third season onward? > > The first senior detective left after the first season. Paul Sorvino was in the second and part of the third, only to be replaced by Orbach. Orbach was on many of the “old” ones. Now you’re making ME feel old. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/12 "2009-05-05T23:09:55Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Now you’re making ME feel old. I’m sorry! ☹ Will it make you feel better if I say something cruel about Barack Obama? ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/13 "2009-05-05T23:15:04Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The first senior detective left after the first season. Max Greevey, played by George Dzundza. Still my third favorite cop, tied with Lenny. Logan was my favorite. Ahhhhh … Mikey. > [@](#): > > Paul Sorvino was in the second and part of the third, only to be replaced by Orbach. Orbach was on many of the “old” ones. And of course he was also on L&O as a scummy attorney in the second season before he became a regular as Lenny in the third. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/14 "2009-05-05T23:21:13Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Max Greevey, played by George Dzundza. Still my third favorite cop, tied with Lenny. Logan was my favorite. Ahhhhh … Mikey. > > And of course he was also on L&O as a scummy attorney in the second season before he became a regular as Lenny in the third. I remember him as an attorney; I don’t recall that he was especially scummy. Early L&O didn’t generally paint the attorneys as scumbags. And there is, of course, that one female black defense attorney who appeared several times whom it was extremely clear that Stone wanted to knock boots with (and she wanted to knock his boots in return). S. . Epatha Merkerson played a murder victim’s mother once. And I’m sure she and Orbach are just the most prominent persons to play multiple roles, as, for many years, most of the guest stars were actors in the New York theater scene. I always liked that; it made the show fresher that they weren’t drawing so much from the Hollywood talent pool. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/15 "2009-05-05T23:38:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I remember him as an attorney; I don’t recall that he was especially scummy. Early L&O didn’t generally paint the attorneys as scumbags. And there is, of course, that one female black defense attorney who appeared several times whom it was extremely clear that Stone wanted to knock boots with (and she wanted to knock his boots in return). As I recall he was pretty much a low rent kinda guy. Admittedly not as scummy as Arthur Gold (Ben Stone’s _bete noir_), but he wasn’t exactly Mr. Slick. And the lady you’re thinking of is the awesome Shambala Greene, played by the awesomer Lorraine Toussaint. Hells yeah, she and Stone had amazing chemistry. (I’m one of the few who prefer Stone to McCoy.) > [@](#): > > S. . Epatha Merkerson played a murder victim’s mother once. And I’m sure she and Orbach are just the most prominent persons to play multiple roles, as, for many years, most of the guest stars were actors in the New York theater scene. I always liked that; it made the show fresher that they weren’t drawing so much from the Hollywood talent pool. Absolutely! I loved all the repeat offenders. David Groh was my favorite, he played two extremely memorable characters in two of the best episodes – the pseudo Joel Steinberg in “Indifference” and Judge Thayer in, uh, one of the earliest episodes with Claire. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/16 "2009-05-06T00:13:40Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > The drug dealer ended up dying from a heroin overdose. Closure, sort of. > [@spooje](#): > > I thought the drug dealer was killed by cops in another precinct. Cops planting those leaking [heroin bullets](http://www.mpoetc.state.pa.us/mpotrs/cwp/view.asp?a=1135&q=443159) up his anus should have done the trick. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > And there is, of course, that one female black defense attorney who appeared several times whom it was extremely clear that Stone wanted to knock boots with (and she wanted to knock his boots in return). Was it Lorraine Toussaint, playing Shambala Green (1990-2003)? ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/17 "2009-05-06T00:20:00Z")
Sorry, too late to edit and see I missed you post about Shambala. And who can forget Donna Hanover, ex-New York City Mayor Rudy Guiliani’s ex-wife playing Judge Deborah Burke on several episodes? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/18 "2009-05-06T00:23:08Z")
A bit of an off-topic comment, but does anyone else remember Orbach’s previous show, “The Law and Harry McGraw”? He played a low-rent private detective. I think it was a spin-off from “Murder She Wrote.” Anyway, I always figured that show is what got him noticed for the Law&Order gig, as the character was a lot like Lennie Brisco. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/19 "2009-05-06T00:37:04Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > Cops planting those leaking [heroin bullets](http://www.mpoetc.state.pa.us/mpotrs/cwp/view.asp?a=1135&q=443159) up his anus should have done the trick.Was it Lorraine Toussaint, playing Shambala Green (1990-2003)? And once again my laziness is rewarded! Yes, that was she. Unlike **choie** , I’m of two minds about Stone & McCoy. Stone’s clearly a better man; McCoy is probably a better prosecutor. I think they’re evenly matched for watchability. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/20 "2009-05-06T01:03:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I remember him as an attorney; I don’t recall that he was especially scummy. Early L&O didn’t generally paint the attorneys as scumbags. And there is, of course, that one female black defense attorney who appeared several times whom it was extremely clear that Stone wanted to knock boots with (and she wanted to knock his boots in return). > > S. . Epatha Merkerson played a murder victim’s mother once. And I’m sure she and Orbach are just the most prominent persons to play multiple roles, as, for many years, most of the guest stars were actors in the New York theater scene. I always liked that; it made the show fresher that they weren’t drawing so much from the Hollywood talent pool. Annie Parisse played a call girl the season before she played Borgia. Robert Vaughan played himself in one episode and a schizophrenic Ted Kennedy cutout in a bunch of others. Larry Miller played himself once and a wife-killing restauranteur twice. Zeljko Ivanek played a murderer, an incestuous dad (on SVU), and Baltimore ADA Ed Danvers. Jim Gaffigan was a child-groping clown in an SVU ep. and a mob hitman’s accomplice in CI. And the L&O franchises have a weird dedication to recycling. All those brownstones where the crime occurred? I count two, shot from weirdly different angles. And one corporate boardroom, one kid’s bedroom, one master bedroom. The “Yankee Rebels” bar made a return appearance, flags and all. And in one episode, Adam Schiff wore a J. Press navy-burgundy-gold striped tie in the first half hour that Jack McCoy wore in the second half hour. And I thought **Star Trek TOS** pinched pennies! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415.md?page=2)