# Old Law and Order Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 5, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415 "2009-05-05T14:11:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/21 "2009-05-06T01:08:02Z")
I’d love to see a L&O spinoff Starring Shambala Greene: The L&O franchise depicts justice from the police/district attourney/courtroom point of view, so why not a show from the POV of the Public Defenders Office? Greene was a private lawyer, but one with a Victim’s Advocacy bent, so her law Firm would be as central to the show as the 27th Precinct and DA’s office is to L&O. Steven Zirnkilton > **[Steven Zirnkilton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Zirnkilton)** > > Steve Zirnkilton (born Stephen Morgan Zirnkilton; August 18, 1958) is an American voice actor and former politician from Maine. Zirnkilton is best known for providing the opening narration of all U.S. series in the Law & Order franchise. > Zirnkilton grew up in York, Pennsylvania and spent summers in Maine. He graduated from New England College and began working for radio station WDEA in Ellsworth, Maine upon graduation. He later settled in Seal Harbor, Maine. Zirnkilton received a Legislative Sen... Would of course voice-over the show’s intro: **“When a criminal suspect requires legal representation and cannot afford one, a representative of The Public Defender’s Office is appointed to serve the best intrests of the accused in police interrogations and trials. These are their stories…”** ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/22 "2009-05-06T01:15:42Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Annie Parisse played a call girl the season before she played Borgia. Robert Vaughan played himself in one episode and a schizophrenic Ted Kennedy cutout in a bunch of others. Larry Miller played himself once and a wife-killing restauranteur twice. Zeljko Ivanek played a murderer, an incestuous dad (on SVU), and Baltimore ADA Ed Danvers. Jim Gaffigan was a child-groping clown in an SVU ep. and a mob hitman’s accomplice in CI. Before she was ADA Casey Novak, Diane Neal was in an episode of SVU where she was one of a group of women who had raped a male stripper. Whoever casts these shows must have a think for women with deep voices. I just have a thing for redheads. ---
**Author:** ![thwartme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@thwartme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thwartme)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/23 "2009-05-06T02:30:35Z")
From season 9, episode 10, “Hate”: **Lt. Van Buren** : Lenny? (_hands Briscoe a piece of paper_) **Briscoe** : (_reads paper, is visibly shaken, sits down_) **Curtis** : What’s up? **Briscoe** : The mope that shot my daughter? D.O.A. in the East Village. Heroin overdose. **Curtis** : Drug problem has an upside, huh Lenny? **Briscoe** : Solved my problem. (_slight smile_) And that’s it. I always took it to mean that Lenny always wondered if he should take that other guy up on his offer to whack the dealer, but never did. thwartme ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/24 "2009-05-06T12:33:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Unlike **choie** , I’m of two minds about Stone & McCoy. Stone’s clearly a better man; McCoy is probably a better prosecutor. I think they’re evenly matched for watchability. I always liked how Stone’s way of speaking sounded like old-time Hollywood, with the pacing and inflection. It seemed so anachronistic, but so fitting. And Casey Novak not only bugged the crap out of me, but she had this bizarre issue where _no hair color looked natural on her_. Weirded me out, it did. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/25 "2009-05-06T12:47:45Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > I always liked how Stone’s way of speaking sounded like old-time Hollywood, with the pacing and inflection. It seemed so anachronistic, but so fitting. My favorite part about Stone was just how much contempt Michael Moriarty could put in the word “sir.” “We have enough evidence to put you away for life. And that’s just what we’ll do, sir, unless you tell us who ordered you to kill him.” ---
**Author:** ![Labdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Labdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labdad)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/26 "2009-05-06T13:01:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > My favorite part about Stone was just how much contempt Michael Moriarty could put in the word “sir.” > > “We have enough evidence to put you away for life. And that’s just what we’ll do, sir, unless you tell us who ordered you to kill him.” Not only “sir,” but the way he’d address a punk as “young man.” Especially, when he would look over the rims of his glasses and say, “Young man, if you don’t start talking to me your life is going to get difficult!” ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/27 "2009-05-06T13:54:32Z")
> [@thwartme](#): > > From season 9, episode 10, “Hate”: > > **Lt. Van Buren** : Lenny? (_hands Briscoe a piece of paper_) > **Briscoe** : (_reads paper, is visibly shaken, sits down_) > **Curtis** : What’s up? > **Briscoe** : The mope that shot my daughter? D.O.A. in the East Village. Heroin overdose. > **Curtis** : Drug problem has an upside, huh Lenny? > **Briscoe** : Solved my problem. (_slight smile_) > > And that’s it. I always took it to mean that Lenny always wondered if he should take that other guy up on his offer to whack the dealer, but never did. > > thwartme Geez, talk about anti-climactic. This seems like the writers just said, “What’re we gonna do? We can’t have Lenny be a murderer!” “Aw, I’m sick of this storyline. Let’s just have the dealer die.” “Okay.” ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/28 "2009-05-06T14:23:49Z")
I’m going to piggyback a L&O question here rather than in a new thread. What trial is this image (in the L&O opening credits) from. Here’s a youtube link. The image I’m refering to is about 42 seconds in. It’s a striking overhead shot of a man pointing in a courtroom. It’s also seen framed on the wall in Jack’s office. Thanks. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yfRvk2WJq8) ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/29 "2009-05-06T15:47:04Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Will it make you feel better if I say something cruel about Barack Obama? That’s okay, sweetie. I wouldn’t want you to strain yourself. 😃 It seems TNT shows seasons 1-2 veeeerrrrryyyy early in the morning. The Sam Waterson/Fred Thompson/Dianne Weist episodes are the ones they show in primetime. Sometimes I’ll catch that a Michael Moriarty episode is on at 3am, and I’ll record it. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/30 "2009-05-06T16:28:45Z")
Camryn Manheim had a small part once as an uncaring foster mother who was just in it for the money. It aired before The Practice started up. One of my favourite Lenny shots was so quick you’d miss it if you weren’t paying attention. He was interviewing a young woman about the possible bad guy in her life, and she said something like: “I knew he wasn’t the best, but I was half in love with him, and I was hoping we could get back together, you know?” And Lenny just said, “I know” in a soft voice and a twisted half-smile, and you knew that he was thinking of all the other young women he’d interviewed in similar circumstances over the years, and maybe about his own lady loves. And then the moment was gone. Orbach was a great actor. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/31 "2009-05-06T16:32:53Z")
I think Manheim also played a defense attorney with a deaf client. She was fluent in sign language. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/32 "2009-05-06T16:34:29Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > That’s okay, sweetie. I wouldn’t want you to strain yourself. 😃 Oh, I’ll do anything for a fellow _Daisies_/_Sports Night_ fan. Barack Obama is a homosexual communist atheist Muslim polygamist wifebeater; he ran for president as a stealth agent of a ruthless terrorist organization determined to rule the world. Even as we speak he is dismantling G. I. Joe, which will leave us defenseness against the Weather Dominator. Wotta bastard. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/33 "2009-05-06T16:36:46Z")
Oooh, baby…do it some more…😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/34 "2009-05-06T16:37:27Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I think Manheim also played a defense attorney with a deaf client. She was fluent in sign language. Are you sure you’re not misremembering The Practice? Her character, Eleanor, was also fluent in sign language, as I think Ms. Manheim is in reality. This led to one of my favorite, blink-&-you’ll-miss-it TV scenes, when Eleanor and the deaf client (likely played by Marlee Matlin) argue vehemently in ASL; Eleanor gets so into it that she stops talking, and the two actresses’ performance – displaying their frustration and anger completely non-verbally-- is a thing of beauty. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/35 "2009-05-06T16:43:50Z")
No, I would have remembered seeing Manheim interact with the delightful Marlee Matlin (who’s also been on L&O SVU). This was an earlier episode, regarding a murdered deaf girl trying to get away from her overbearing hearing mentor (he killed her, of course, and got turned in by his deaf receptionist, who was in love with him. She had kept the transcripts of the TDD phone conversations between the mentor and the victim.) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/36 "2009-05-06T16:49:44Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > No, I would have remembered seeing Manheim interact with the delightful Marlee Matlin (who’s also been on L&O SVU). This was an earlier episode, regarding a murdered deaf girl trying to get away from her overbearing hearing mentor (he killed her, of course, and got turned in by his deaf receptionist, who was in love with him. She had kept the transcripts of the TDD phone conversations between the mentor and the victim.) I’m glad to hear you weren’t conflating Practice & L&O, as that would be…odd. Two more superficially similar and fundamentally disjoint series would be hard to imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/37 "2009-05-06T16:50:09Z")
I think **Ivylass** is right. The one I was thinking of was [Nurture (1994)](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0629357/) (“Stone is reluctantly forced to pursue criminal charges against a woman who kidnapped a young girl and took her away from an abusive foster home, even though he thinks she should receive psychiatric care instead.”) But Manheim was in two other L&O episodes, playing different characters. One of them, [Benevolence (1993)](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0629172/) concerned deaf issues: > [@](#): > > A young, independent deaf woman is murdered, but what is it her scorned lover or her obsessed mentor? Detectives Briscoe and Logan scour phone transcripts, while forensics narrows the search. It’s up to prosecutors Stone and Robinette to persuade the truth out of the victim’s mentor, the founder of a local institute for the deaf. The IMDB summaries don’t say what part she played in each episode, but if Manheim was fluent in ASL, I could see her being picked for the part of the defence lawyer, and then having a similar script role later on in The Practice. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/38 "2009-05-06T16:50:15Z")
I’ve seen the episode: the Deaf defendent was some sort of mechanic, and Lenny Briscoe showed him the Miranda spiel written on a 3\*5 card before taking him away. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415/39 "2009-05-06T17:49:17Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Absolutely! I loved all the repeat offenders. David Groh was my favorite, he played two extremely memorable characters in two of the best episodes – the pseudo Joel Steinberg in “Indifference” and Judge Thayer in, uh, one of the earliest episodes with Claire. Marcia Jean Kurtz was frustratingly good in Indifference too, and shows up over the years in different roles. [http://millie.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/28/marcia\_jean\_kurtz\_4.jpg](http://millie.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/28/marcia_jean_kurtz_4.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-law-and-order-question/495415.md?page=1)