# Old Nick, Lucifer and Beelzebub **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 30, 2001, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716 "2001-06-30T10:46:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![melchizedek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@melchizedek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/melchizedek)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/1 "2001-06-30T10:46:05Z")
Just a quick one, having checked out a few strings, not much has come up… I understand why Satan was called Lucifer etc, but Where does “OLD NICK” come from? And I’m sure I’m not confusing him with St Nick (Santa…) cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Bird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Little\_Bird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bird)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/2 "2001-07-01T04:38:52Z")
Ok, one of the nicknames is also Old Scratch, so maybe someone got confused: “Hey, it’s the Devil! What’s his name? Old Scrape? Old Razor Burn? I know! Old Nick!” Eeh, I’m probably wrong. It’s late. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jaimest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@jaimest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaimest)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/3 "2001-07-01T04:45:21Z")
In my neck of the woods, Satan is referred to as “Phil Gramm”. ---
**Author:** ![ThisYearsGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@ThisYearsGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisYearsGirl)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/4 "2001-07-01T05:09:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Little Bird \* > \*\*“Hey, it’s the Devil! What’s his name? Old Scrape? Old Razor Burn? I know! Old Nick!” > \*\* The sad thing is, it took me an an hour to get this. But it was really funny once I did get it. As for the question, I found this link–[http://www.seflin.org/pagan/pagan.15.html](http://www.seflin.org/pagan/pagan.15.html) I kinda skimmed it 'cause the font was killing my eyes, but it does say that Old Nick and St. Nick are somewhat related, and both are related to Hold Nickar, a Teutonic equivalent to Poseidon. ---
**Author:** ![lestrange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aca169/32.png) [@lestrange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lestrange)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/5 "2001-07-01T13:30:59Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by ThisYearsGirl \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Little Bird \* > \*\* > > As for the question, I found this link–[http://www.seflin.org/pagan/pagan.15.html](http://www.seflin.org/pagan/pagan.15.html) > I kinda skimmed it 'cause the font was killing my eyes, but it does say that Old Nick and St. Nick are somewhat related, and both are related to Hold Nickar, a Teutonic equivalent to Poseidon. \*\* On the other hand, this site [http://www.maushammer.com/devil.html#Indexcat.old](http://www.maushammer.com/devil.html#Indexcat.old) says, more reasonably– “17th century. May be from the German “Nickel,” meaning goblin. Also means copper-nickel, a deceptive ore.” I’m not a big Santa Claus fan, but the arguments on the anti-christmas (okay, at least this one is anti-dec.25 christmas) site just don’t make sense. It reminds me of the Christian fish comic–plausible on the surface, but ridiculous once you examine the details. The most obvious ridiculousness is the twisting of the story of St. Nick giving dowries to poor girls: “One of his most famous acts of charity was the throwing of money through open windows to provide dowries for unmarried women. He really did not like spinsters and believed all women should accept the slavery of lawful marriage!” At that time, a woman who wanted to marry (and there were reasons to want this) needed a dowry to do so. There was no social security then, no welfare, and few employment opportunities for women, especially women who lacked capital. Marriage could secure her future financially, and produce children who would help take care of her in her old age. Yes, husbands basically owned their wives, who had no independence. Yes, husbands were sometimes abusive, and wives had little or no recourse. But before marriage, a woman was subject to her father, under pretty much the same terms and without the financial and social benefits of marriage. Providing dowries for poor women who otherwise couldn’t marry is not the same thing as hating spinsters, or even believing all women should be married. Anyway, my money is on “goblin.” ---
**Author:** ![mongrel\_8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@mongrel\_8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mongrel_8)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/6 "2001-07-01T14:51:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThisYearsGirl \* > **… but it does say that Old Nick and St. Nick are somewhat related…** Has anyone else noticed that **Santa** is an anagram for **Satan**? Oh, I’m on to you Father Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/7 "2001-07-01T15:51:27Z")
And they both wear red and black, and they’ve never been photographed together. 🙂 Who was the comedian who did that bit, anyway? – “And when you can’t trust the devil . . .” ---
**Author:** ![Ferggie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Ferggie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferggie)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/8 "2001-07-01T19:27:24Z")
The Saint Nick story we heard in German class was that he gave the girls dowry money so they wouldn’t be forced to become prostitutes. I’d never heard about him not liking spinsters. In history class one year we were supposed to research the Christmas traditions of various countries. I picked Germany and found there’s another, more gruesome German Saint Nick story…it tells of a butcher who was I guess too cheap to buy livestock to slaughter so he lured three children into his shop…who he then proceeded to murder. He cut up the bodies and pickled them in a large barrel. Good ol’ Saint Nick somehow (meaning I don’t remember) acquired the barrel and restored the chopped and pickled kids to life. And THAT, my friends, is how Saint Nick became the patron saint of children. He’s also a patron saint of sailors, but I wasn’t sure I wanted to find out how that happened. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/9 "2001-07-01T21:54:15Z")
**lestrange** wrote: > [@](#): > > “17th century. May be from the German “Nickel,” meaning goblin. Also means copper-nickel, a deceptive ore.” The story I read years ago was that a chemist, whose name evades me, coined the term _Kupfernickel_ after repeatedly producing what we all nickel in the attempt to produce copper. As the story was told to me, _Kupfernickel_ literally means `the Devil’s Copper.’ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/10 "2001-07-01T23:20:01Z")
> [@](#): > > He’s also a patron saint of sailors, but I wasn’t sure I wanted to find out how that happened. I thought that [Brendan](http://cedar.evansville.edu/~ecoleweb/glossary/brendan.html) was the patron of sailors… He would make a lot more sense for the honor than Nicholas. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/11 "2001-07-02T00:03:37Z")
Patron saints: [http://saints.catholic.org/patron.html](http://saints.catholic.org/patron.html) That lists 4 patron saints for sailors - Brendan, Erasmus (Elmo), Francis of Paola and Nicholas of Myra. Nicholas has a lot of charters: seafarers, scholars, bankers, pawnbrokers, jurists, brewers, coopers, travelers, perfumers, unmarried girls, brides, robbers and children. He shouldn’t begrudge poor old Brendan and Elmo the sailors, I guess. BTW, they’ve decided on Isadore as patron saint of the internet and computer users: [http://www.virtual-helpdesk.com/st\_isidore.htm](http://www.virtual-helpdesk.com/st_isidore.htm) One source claims that Isadore invented hypertext - probably stretching it a bit. He IS credited with authoring the world’s first encyclopedia. I suppose the statement really means he invented the cross-reference. Pretty good for the 6-7th century, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Synergist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Synergist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Synergist)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-nick-lucifer-and-beelzebub/70716/12 "2001-07-02T04:03:03Z")
According to Charle W. Jones, author of Saint Nicholas of Myra, Bari, and Manhattan, Biography of a Legend (1978, Univ. of Chicago Press), St. Nick is one of the patron saints of sailors because Myra was, at one time, the site of a Poseidan cult, it being the last safe harbor before a voyage to the south. When Christianity supplanted paganism, the sailors stopped lighting candles to Poseidan and started lighting them to the local martyred bishop, Nicholas.