# Old Russian typewriter keyboard **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 18, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983 "2006-10-18T18:54:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/1 "2006-10-18T18:54:16Z")
I added a font named “95” to the computer recently. It’s a Cyrillic font, which seems to be an old keyboard format from Russian typewriters, which is fine and dandy–except that I’ve noticed that the _oborotnoye e_ (“backwards e”) is missing from the keyboard. It’s the third-from-last ketter in the Russian alphabet and usually has the sound of _e_ in _let._ Have I missed something? ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/2 "2006-10-18T19:00:11Z")
It might be mapped to the backslash/pipe key, or to the quote mark key (as viewed on a Western keyboard). ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/3 "2006-10-19T00:27:32Z")
Russian has had the letter “Э” for as long as the cyrillic alphabet has been used. I have never heard it called ‘oborotnoye e’ in Russian however. On my layout it’s where the english register ‘’ button is (also the |). ---
**Author:** ![Crescend](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Crescend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crescend)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/4 "2006-10-19T01:40:35Z")
[QUOTE=groman] Russian has had the letter “Э” for as long as the cyrillic alphabet has been used. I have never heard it called ‘oborotnoye e’ in Russian however. On my layout it’s where the english register '' button is (also the |). [/QUOTE] I’ve never heard it called anything but “eh”. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/5 "2006-10-19T07:52:56Z")
[QUOTE=Crescend] I’ve never heard it called anything but “eh”. [/QUOTE] I’m using the names for the letters as given in _The Berlitz Self-Teacher: Russian,_ which I bought 30 years ago and have on the desk in front of me. The letters it gives names to, that are longer than one syllable, are: The _i_ (backwards “N” with the little curlicue on top) \* i krátkoye\* “short i.” The symbol like a lower-case “b” with a stroke to the left, at the top: _tvyórdi znak_ (“hard sign”). The symbol like a lower-case “b” with no such stroke: _myáki znak,_ ('soft sign"). As you can tell, I don’t have the expertise to produce Cyrillic characters on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Crescend](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Crescend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crescend)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/6 "2006-10-19T08:06:00Z")
[QUOTE=dougie\_monty] I’m using the names for the letters as given in _The Berlitz Self-Teacher: Russian,_ which I bought 30 years ago and have on the desk in front of me. The letters it gives names to, that are longer than one syllable, are: The _i_ (backwards “N” with the little curlicue on top) \* i krátkoye\* “short i.” The symbol like a lower-case “b” with a stroke to the left, at the top: _tvyórdi znak_ (“hard sign”). The symbol like a lower-case “b” with no such stroke: _myáki znak,_ ('soft sign"). As you can tell, I don’t have the expertise to produce Cyrillic characters on the SDMB. [/QUOTE] Those are correct. That name for “э” may well be correct as well - I’ve never read any linguistics texts about Russian, so for all I know, that may well be the correct technical name for the letter. However, in my experience, “й”, “ъ”, and “ь” were referred to in common speech by the names you mentioned, while “э” was referred to by the sound the letter represents. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/7 "2006-10-19T08:16:36Z")
[QUOTE=Crescend] Those are correct. That name for “э” may well be correct as well - I’ve never read any linguistics texts about Russian, so for all I know, that may well be the correct technical name for the letter. However, in my experience, “й”, “ъ”, and “ь” were referred to in common speech by the names you mentioned, while “э” was referred to by the sound the letter represents. [/QUOTE] Fine with me. 🙂 If anyone tried to make the names of the Russian letters scan with the Western alphabet jingle, _oborotnoye e_ might come off as a bit awkward. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/8 "2006-10-19T08:39:07Z")
I’ve heard it called “eh oborotnoye” but I’ve never heard it called “oborotnoye eh.” That’s just silly talk. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/9 "2006-10-19T09:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] I’ve heard it called “eh oborotnoye” but I’ve never heard it called “oborotnoye eh.” That’s just silly talk. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Well, I understand that the word order in Russian, while not so free as that of Latin, is considerable freer than that of Engliah. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/10 "2006-10-19T18:50:10Z")
Ok I looked around the Russian internet and some people are really calling it “оборотное е”. After breaking my brain reading Bulgarian and Ukrainian message boards discussing the difficulties of Russian, as well as Russian sites that call for the death of the letter “Ё”, my feeling is that there is one of three things going on here: [ol] [li]That name for the letter is archaic but is still in use in other slavic countries. At least half of the search results mentioning the phrase “оборотное е” did so in the context of Bulgarian not having it in the language. I found that odd because IIRC Ukrainian doesn’t have it either and they’re not complaining. However, this simply might be due to the fact that a lot of Ukrainians might still primarily type in Russian and as such do not need to apologize for not having “Э” on a Russian message board.[/li][li]This is a formal linguistic term that has been picked up by foreigners and reintroduced. [/li][li]This is actually a borrowed name from some other slavonic language. [/li][/ol] I’m sure some of my paper dictionaries have an entry for the letter itself, but I won’t be able to get to them until this weekend. If it hasn’t been solved by then, I’ll update (you might have to bump the thread to remind me though 😉 ) P.S. As a not-so-interesting side-note, replacing a lot of the “е” with “э” is the first step in mocking a St. Petersburg accent, and the other way is the first step in mocking a Georgian one. P.P.S. In my attempts to teach some anglophones proper Russian pronounciation of some words, I found that syllables involving “ы” are extremely difficult. Since I grew up saying them I don’t really know how to “teach it” other than … ‘roll your tongue thusly’ and that’s not helping. I know this sound doesn’t really exist in English, but any tricks to it? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/11 "2006-10-19T19:13:13Z")
[QUOTE=groman] I’m sure some of my paper dictionaries have an entry for the letter itself, but I won’t be able to get to them until this weekend. If it hasn’t been solved by then, I’ll update (you might have to bump the thread to remind me though 😉 ) [/quote] All I have with me at the moment is my little Pocket Oxford. It has it as: > [@](#): > > eh n. indecl., eh oborotnoye, the letter eh I really wish someone could 'splain me how to use cyrillic on these message boards running Safari on a Mac. :mad: > [@](#): > > P.P.S. In my attempts to teach some anglophones proper Russian pronounciation of some words, I found that syllables involving “?” are extremely difficult. Since I grew up saying them I don’t really know how to “teach it” other than … ‘roll your tongue thusly’ and that’s not helping. I know this sound doesn’t really exist in English, but any tricks to it? That’s a hard one to describe in writing. It’s kinda like a regular “e” in English, but you pronounce with a bit of a grunt. Sort of as if someone walked up behind you and gave you a shove and you said “uh.” The sound comes from deeper in the diaphragm. Sorta. ---
**Author:** ![Crescend](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Crescend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crescend)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/12 "2006-10-19T19:18:24Z")
[QUOTE=groman] P.P.S. In my attempts to teach some anglophones proper Russian pronounciation of some words, I found that syllables involving “ы” are extremely difficult. Since I grew up saying them I don’t really know how to “teach it” other than … ‘roll your tongue thusly’ and that’s not helping. I know this sound doesn’t really exist in English, but any tricks to it? [/QUOTE] I’ve tried to do this on many occasions, and I just couldn’t. The closest I can get to is to start with the a high-pitched falsetto “eee” sound, and lower the pitch down to the appropriate register, without altering anything else. That’s a slightly different sound though. Another way would be to make a grunt, without the explosive breath release. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/13 "2006-10-19T19:19:12Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] That’s a hard one to describe in writing. It’s kinda like a regular “e” in English, but you pronounce with a bit of a grunt. Sort of as if someone walked up behind you and gave you a shove and you said “uh.” The sound comes from deeper in the diaphragm. Sorta. [/QUOTE] My take on it is, if you say “oo” as in moon, payattention to your tongue and call it “back and low”. Then say “ee” as in green, and call it “front and high”. Now start saying “ee” as in green but pull back your tongue so you could say it’s “back and high”. Does that make sense? I’m going to try it on an eager anglophone tonight. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/14 "2006-10-19T19:37:53Z")
[QUOTE=groman] My take on it is, if you say “oo” as in moon, payattention to your tongue and call it “back and low”. Then say “ee” as in green, and call it “front and high”. Now start saying “ee” as in green but pull back your tongue so you could say it’s “back and high”. Does that make sense? I’m going to try it on an eager anglophone tonight. [/QUOTE] I like that. Here’s another way. Most English speakers can imitate a chimpanzee. If not, just have them watch Planet of the Apes. They make this grunting noise sorta like “ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh.” Remember how you make that noise and apply that little extra effort from your diaphragm to the “ee” sound. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/15 "2006-10-19T19:48:14Z")
> [@](#): > > I really wish someone could 'splain me how to use cyrillic on these message boards running Safari on a Mac. Don’t bother is my advice. I can type in Cyrillic on my Mac just fine, and have a nice little hotkey and everything to switch between English and Russian keyboard layouts, but every time I’ve tried to post Cyrillic to the SDMB using Safari my text has turned into a bunch of ?s. Camino works for posting Cyrillic here, and I can send Cyrillic to other web pages using Safari, so it appears to be the combination of Safari and the SDMB that causes the problem. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/16 "2006-10-19T20:17:59Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] Don’t bother is my advice. I can type in Cyrillic on my Mac just fine, and have a nice little hotkey and everything to switch between English and Russian keyboard layouts, but every time I’ve tried to post Cyrillic to the SDMB using Safari my text has turned into a bunch of ?s. Camino works for posting Cyrillic here, and I can send Cyrillic to other web pages using Safari, so it appears to be the combination of Safari and the SDMB that causes the problem. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I’ve got the little Russian flag on my menu bar which makes it a snap to switch to Cyrillic, but it’s such a pain not being able to type it here. What’s Camino? ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/17 "2006-10-19T20:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > What’s Camino? [http://www.caminobrowser.org/](http://www.caminobrowser.org/) It’s a Mozilla-based browser for Mac that’s not Firefox and doesn’t suck. ---
**Author:** ![aktep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@aktep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aktep)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/18 "2006-10-19T20:33:06Z")
[QUOTE=groman] P.P.S. In my attempts to teach some anglophones proper Russian pronounciation of some words, I found that syllables involving “ы” are extremely difficult. Since I grew up saying them I don’t really know how to “teach it” other than … ‘roll your tongue thusly’ and that’s not helping. I know this sound doesn’t really exist in English, but any tricks to it? [/QUOTE] I am a born Anglophone, and no one has complained of my pronounciation of ы, although it’s been about 8 or 9 years since I’ve had regular conversation in Russian. To me, the word “we” is pronounced something close to “уыи”. The trick is identifying that middle sound and using it. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/19 "2006-10-19T20:43:49Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] [http://www.caminobrowser.org/](http://www.caminobrowser.org/) It’s a Mozilla-based browser for Mac that’s not Firefox and doesn’t suck. [/QUOTE] Тест, тест, тест, използуя ‘камино.’ Hey, it works! Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983/20 "2006-10-19T20:56:26Z")
Regarding ы: If your prospective speaker of Russian already speaks German, French or Classical Greek, you have it knocked: “Goethe taught _une jeune fille_ how to sound an upsilon.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-russian-typewriter-keyboard/376983.md?page=2)