# Old School Baseball style **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 20, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653 "2012-12-20T18:47:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cman89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e0b2c6/32.png) [@cman89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cman89)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/1 "2012-12-20T18:47:25Z")
I am a lifelong Baseball fan, and I have read extensively on the history of the game, coaching, how to hit, how to pitch, etc… One of my favorite baseball related tidbits is to watch video of vintage players from eras of the 2000’s back to the 1910’s. One thing I always notice is that the pitching style of the old school players was vastly different from what is used now. Before the 60’s or so, pitchers would have a very “exaggerated” windup, often with some sort of arm windmilling. The delivery would then consist of high and straight leg kicks with a strong backwards lean and a very prominent arm extension. At some point along the line, windups became more and more compact, and many pitcher now are almost “short arming” the ball with very little leg kick, even from a full windup. My question is, what prompted such a change in pitching style? And would an “old school” style have any advantages in today’s baseball? ---
**Author:** ![Blkshp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blkshp/32/7135_2.png) [@Blkshp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blkshp)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/2 "2012-12-20T20:22:24Z")
Rules changed quite a bit along the way from the mid 1800’s to the early 1900’s. Initially, the pitcher was 45 ft from home plate and threw underhand with a stiff arm. It was a hitting game – no balls or called strikes (3 swings-and-misses yer out). In fact, a batter could request pitch location. Eventually pitchers started slipping arm-bending in, leading to increased speed which led to moving the rubber back. Then overhand stiff armed delivery was permitted and eventually arm-bending was again permitted and the rubber moved back further. It’s important to understand that rules were not standard in the early days and varied from place to place and team to team. By about 1905 rules were more standardized as the game became organized under the major associations. I played organized vintage baseball for about 10 years under all kinds of rule sets (from 1865 to 1900 - about every variation you can think of). What a blast! ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/3 "2012-12-20T20:29:24Z")
Also, I’m not sure of the year, but I believe it wasn’t until the 1920s that spitballs were banned. Before that, the pitchers using all sorts of ball ‘modifications’ was just part of the game. I believe the whole pre-spitball ban years are referred to as the ‘_ **Dead Ball** _’ era. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/4 "2012-12-20T20:59:31Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Also, I’m not sure of the year, but I believe it wasn’t until the 1920s that spitballs were banned. Before that, the pitchers using all sorts of ball ‘modifications’ was just part of the game. I believe the whole pre-spitball ban years are referred to as the ‘_ **Dead Ball** _’ era. Yes, but not because of spitballs. After Babe Ruth started hitting home runs, and owners realized fans like that and adjusted the rules. The most important change was putting new balls in play if the old one got dirty; they used to stay in play for 100 or more pitches, until they actually fell apart. The clean, new balls traveled further. The spitball was also banned (except for 16 pitchers who were allowed to use it until they retired), but that was a minor part of it. Back to the OP, the change in windup is due to knowing more about the most efficient way to throw a baseball. You see very few odd windups these days (the last was probably Livan Hernandez), since players are taught to do it the best way. You also don’t see many oddball pitches (screwballs, knuckleballs, etc.), since pitchers are trained to throw fastballs, with sliders, curves, and changeups for variety. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/5 "2012-12-20T21:33:19Z")
Wikipedia mentions the spitball as part of the dead-ball era, along with freaking ginormous ballparks–600 foot center field walls and the like. Having started watching baseball more recently, I’m noticing quite a few side-arm pitchers–is this a recent development? I don’t remember seeing it as a kid. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/6 "2012-12-20T22:48:31Z")
I think there were a series of changes. Back when I first starting watching baseball (and, mainly listening to radio broadcasts, which I still mostly prefer to TV since the announcer is there and tries to explain everything) they talked incessantly about the need of the pitcher to “pace himself”, meaning take it a bit easy until they came to an obviously crucial situation. Pitchers were expected to pitch 9 innings. Before 1950, relief pitching was mostly done by over-the-hill old-timers and fresh rookies. There were no relief specialists. Then around 1950, the Yankees got a relief specialist whose name I have forgotten. He was not what we now call a closer since he often pitched 2 or 3 innings and every third or fourth day. The one I recall was Jim Konstanty who took a fairly mediocre Phillies team (they had a couple of good players–Robin Roberts and Richie Ashburn made the Hall of Fame, but the rest were basically journeymen) into the World Series (where they lost four straight to the Yankees). But Konstanty had been overused and never pitched effectively again and they never came close to repeating. By 1960, most teams had specialists and were coming to realize how to effectively use a closer. The result was fewer and fewer complete games, but pitchers were no longer expected to pace themselves. They went all out on every pitch and lasted 6 or 7 innings only. Many pitchers broke down under this regime and pitching coaches started paying close attention to the body mechanics of pitching and started training pitchers to adopt throwing motions that would maximize their survival chances and I think that is what you are seeing. Yes, the early days of baseball were “dead ball” eras but that didn’t mean not much hitting; it meant not much power hitting. Batting averages were high. There was an occasional .400 hitter, something not seen since 1940. In one season (around 1930) the National League average, including pitchers hitting was just over .300 (.301 comes to mind). It then went into a more or less steady decline. I haven’t look at the league averages but if the NL is about around .260 I would be surprised. The AL will be higher because of the DH, which not only means pitchers don’t bat, but they also tend to stay in the game a bit longer. I am predicting that the next big change will be the “3 inning pitcher”, three of whom will be expected to pitch in each game with maybe only one day of rest between outings. This would throw the whole concept of a “winning pitcher” into a cocked hat where it has belonged for at least 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/7 "2012-12-20T22:51:51Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I believe it wasn’t until the 1920s that spitballs were banned. The ban started in 1920, but pitchers who threw spitballs were “grandfathered” and could continue to use it until they retired. It thus persisted (with a diminishing role) well into the 1930s. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/8 "2012-12-20T23:42:04Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > The ban started in 1920, but pitchers who threw spitballs were “grandfathered” and could continue to use it until they retired. It thus persisted (with a diminishing role) well into the 1930s. Not quite. For the 1920 season, each team was allowed to designate two spitball pitchers. Then starting with 1921 the 17 existing spitball pitchers were grandfathered in. Burleigh Grimes was the last one to retire, in 1934. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/9 "2012-12-20T23:56:31Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Wikipedia mentions the spitball as part of the dead-ball era, along with freaking ginormous ballparks–600 foot center field walls and the like. > > Having started watching baseball more recently, I’m noticing quite a few side-arm pitchers–is this a recent development? I don’t remember seeing it as a kid. When were you a kid? Kent Tekulve pitched side arm in the 1970’s. How the hell I pulled that from my memory is a mystery. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/10 "2012-12-21T00:02:57Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > When were you a kid? Kent Tekulve pitched side arm in the 1970’s. How the hell I pulled that from my memory is a mystery. Heh. I was just writing up a post to mention him. Dan Quisenberry, too, though more submarine. As a child of the 80s, I remember sidearming being a known, though not common, style of pitching. I used to throw a rubber ball agains my stoop or wall alternaying between sidearm and three-quarters styles. Weren’t Dizzy Dean, Walter Johnson, and Satchell Paige all sidearmers? The one that really looks odd to me is the true over- the-top overhand. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/11 "2012-12-21T00:22:41Z")
The reason everyone used to do it is because everyone did it that way. There isn’t any real advantage to it. For whatever reason exaggerated windups were kind of the order of the day for a long time. Much of this sort of thing is stylistic; players imitate those who came before. It’s bene the style recently to release the top hand during the swing; you don’t have to do that, really, but it became fashionable. If you watch Japanese hitters, they tend to have a downward, slashing, two-handed approach to addressing the baseball. There’s no particular pro or con to that, if you can do it. They just do it because it’s the style there. It went away because the stolen base came back aafter a 30-40 year absence. A huge windup didn’t matter too much because there weren’t many stolen bases. Once basestealing became popular again in the 60s, pitchers responded by shortening deliveries. [QUOTE=pulykamell] Weren’t Dizzy Dean, Walter Johnson, and Satchell Paige all sidearmers? The one that really looks odd to me is the true over- the-top overhand. [/QUOTE] Paige was a more conventional three-quarters pitcher, and Johnson could throw a straight sidearm or come over the top. Paige later added sidearm pitches (and almost everything else) to his arsenal of tricks, but in his prime he was bringing it overhand with big time heat. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/12 "2012-12-21T00:41:24Z")
Moved to the Game Room from GQ. **samclem** , moderator ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/13 "2012-12-21T00:42:32Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > When were you a kid? Kent Tekulve pitched side arm in the 1970’s. How the hell I pulled that from my memory is a mystery. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Heh. I was just writing up a post to mention him. Dan Quisenberry, too, though more submarine. As a child of the 80s, I remember sidearming being a known, though not common, style of pitching. I used to throw a rubber ball agains my stoop or wall alternaying between sidearm and three-quarters styles. Weren’t Dizzy Dean, Walter Johnson, and Satchell Paige all sidearmers? The one that really looks odd to me is the true over- the-top overhand. Also Gene Garber for the Braves. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/14 "2012-12-21T00:59:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Paige was a more conventional three-quarters pitcher, and Johnson could throw a straight sidearm or come over the top. Ah, that reminded me. Dennis Eckersley would sometimes drop down to a sidearm, too, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/15 "2012-12-21T01:05:49Z")
I also thought Mitch Williams was a sidearmer, but looking at videos of him now, it seems like it was just a pretty low three-quarters delivery, followed by falling off the mound, with the occasional line drive to the face. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/16 "2012-12-21T01:40:26Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > When were you a kid? Kent Tekulve pitched side arm in the 1970’s. How the hell I pulled that from my memory is a mystery. Child of the 80s here, but I wasn’t really a baseball fan then–went to the occasional Reds game with my dad, but that was it. Is it more common now? ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/17 "2012-12-21T02:29:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Then around 1950, the Yankees got a relief specialist whose name I have forgotten This was Joe Page. See below. [EMAIL=“[Joe Page - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Page)”][Joe Page - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Page) ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/18 "2012-12-21T02:37:00Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Ah, that reminded me. Dennis Eckersley would sometimes drop down to a sidearm, too, IIRC. Or my favorite. Dirty Dick Tidrow.. Juan Marichial would drop down and give you sidearm.. or three quarters.. I really could see Pedro Martinez as a modern day version of Juan.. I think most kids pitching today are taught basically the same techniques.. if you watch an NFL Qb’s back in the day.. i bet they all throw the same now.. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/19 "2012-12-21T03:13:24Z")
In the mid 60s with the Indians, Ted Abernathy used a so-called submarine style which was even lower than side-arm but not really underhand. He might have used it earlier with the Senators. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653/20 "2012-12-21T12:43:24Z")
The reasons for the elaborate wind-up were well summarized by sportswriter Roy Stockton, writing in 1956 (quoted in _The Perfect Yankee_): > [@](#): > > In recent years especially, young pitchers have been told that they must go through as many maneuvers as possible to distract the batter. Herm Wehmeier, for instance . . . learned several ballet dancer kicks, raised his foot into full view of the batter, meantime hiding the ball and his backswing behind his big leg. . . . Much time is devoted, too, during instruction of pitchers, to the development of a windmill windup. Dizzy Dean had a great windup and so did Bobo Newsom. Sometimes they gave the batter a double or triple take of the windmill motion and the batter would be so intrigued, trying to guess just when that fellow on the mound was going to untangle himself and let the ball go, that the business of trying to hit the ball would be forgotten. Of course, this deception came at a certain price in velocity and accuracy. As **Chuck** said, an elaborate windup isn’t the most efficient way to get the ball to the plate. Over time, with better and stronger hitters and a smaller strike zone, that became a price that fewer pitchers wanted to pay. Perhaps the occasional soft tosser, even today, could benefit (with nobody on base, of course) from an elaborate windup. But there’s no one around to teach it any more. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-school-baseball-style/644653.md?page=2)