# Old South racism alive and well in Texas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663 "2005-06-09T22:38:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/61 "2005-06-10T16:24:41Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Are you sure they were two different juries? It reads to me as if one jury tried all the charges. (Obviously, I may be missing something). > > Daniel From the linked story: > [@](#): > > The jurors in those cases, three of whom were black, acquitted Amox and Hicks of aggravated assault. Amox was convicted of misdemeanor assault, and Hicks was convicted of injury to a disabled person by omission. > > **Both juries** recommended suspended sentences and probation as punishment. But District Judge Ralph Burgess, using his authority to impose additional jail time, last month sentenced Owens, Stone and Amox to 30 days in jail, and sentenced Hicks to 60 days. Like I said, the story implies a total of three jurors but doesn’t say they were all on the same jury. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/62 "2005-06-10T16:26:15Z")
I see what you’re saying: it does sound like two different juries, but doesn’t explicitly say that. Fair point; carry on! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/63 "2005-06-10T16:27:08Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Yeah, **holmes** , that occurred to me as well. Or it may mean that according to jury instructions, the case didn’t rise to felony level. Or it may mean that they’re a bunch of self-haters. Or it could mean that **the victim was a real jerk** , and small-town attitudes took over, with jurors deciding he got what was coming to him. A “real jerk”? I thought the victim was a “mentally retarded man” who functioned “at the level of a twelve-year-old.” In my opinion, the question of his being a jerk isn’t even worth asking. ---
**Author:** ![byomtoob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@byomtoob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/byomtoob)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/64 "2005-06-10T16:28:35Z")
In the original article on this in the printed Chicago Tribune, there was a picture of the local post office. Right above the entry way was a mural of cotton-picking slaves. The USPS was quoted as saying “they have no plans” to remove the mural! ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/65 "2005-06-10T16:35:15Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > People of color are more likely than whites to live in conditions that are hazardous to their health. This is known as “environmental racism.” It may not be as easy to notice as a predominately racist community or a hate crime. But it is just as destructive and very, very widespread. > > In **New Mexico** farm workers are exposed to toxic pesticides that can result in birth defects, nerve disorders, cancer, and even death. In some areas such as **South Dakota** , companies responsible for waste disposal are trying to get around tight regulations by contracting with Native Indian Reservations for dumping. > > [Environmental racism](http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/jpc/echoes/echoes-17-02.html) > > _Do something_. **Zoe** , pointing out that bad shit happens elsewhere does not negate it happening here. I am not entirely sure where you are, but I see that fucking shitrag flying every single day. Not just as a flag but on cars, shirts and tattoos. It is, simply, repulsive. A friend of mine moved here from N.C. He is married to a white girl. You better believe they have noticed a lot of shit since being here. N.C. was no picnic, but they say this is much worse. The South has a reputation. Because it is deserved. Not everyone thinks in racist terms here. But the majority do. Many of them do not even know they are doing it. A few quotes I have heard - from seemingly nice people “Date a black guy and you had better never come home again” (from a teacher to her daughter) “N\*\*\*\*-lover” to me from a recent high-school grad. Someone I though was intelligent and beyond this “We ought to segregate schools again” Another highschooler. This one very intelligent. It is not dying out in the South like it should. These attitudes are perpetuated each generation. They come from family and from churches. Yes, churches. Many actively discourage African-Americans from joining and suggest they might be better off “with their own kind” (whateverthefuck that means). You need to stop being so defensive and admit that we have a problem here and that it is not going away. I can imagine plenty of Alabama towns where what happened in the OP could happen. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/66 "2005-06-10T17:00:33Z")
Thank goodness we have places like [Minneapolis](http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/The_National_Socialist_Movement.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=nsm) to counteract places like Texas and Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/67 "2005-06-10T17:24:14Z")
I’ve said, on this board, that one of the main reasons I had for leaving Texas in 1963 was the blatant bigotry and racial hatred that was virtually institutional there. This incident is typical of that attitude, even if the result is not. I didn’t understand racism then and I don’t understand it now. I hope and believe racism is less prevalent now; obviously it still exists in places. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/68 "2005-06-10T17:35:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Thank goodness we have places like [Minneapolis](http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/The_National_Socialist_Movement.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=nsm) to counteract places like Texas and Alabama. The difference, as you know but have chosen to ignore, is that those Nazi creeps in Minneapolis are a _miniscule_ minority while the rebel flag waving creeps are, if not a majority down south, a _substantial_ minority. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/69 "2005-06-10T17:50:15Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] The difference, as you know but have chosen to ignore, is that those Nazi creeps in Minneapolis are a _miniscule_ minority … QUOTE] Yeah, sure they are. You’re aware that the midwest, not the southeast, was pretty much the real stronghold of the Ku Klux Klan in the 20th century? You’re aware that at one time the Klan pretty much owned the state government of Indiana? You’re aware the American Nazi party has its HQ in Illinois? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/70 "2005-06-10T18:33:40Z")
Unlike the midwesterners, southerners have historically never had much of a problem with overt, flagrant displays of racism as a matter of public record, law or tradition, or politicians running as segregationists, or having the Klan rally to uphold Jim Crow laws and disenfranchisement, or excusing mob violence. Numerically you can look at the south as being a trendsetter and holdout in this regard. I suppose its a matter of what is seen as decorum. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/71 "2005-06-10T18:49:32Z")
And they’re still a miniscule minority. **Lib** , if you read your own cite, you’ll see that the organization you linked to typically has less than 200 members nationwide. I can’t find a membership figure for the “headquarters” in Minneapolis but given that the entire 200 member population is stretched out between 38 chapters across the country the average chapter membership would appear to be less than 5 idiots per chapter. Even if we double that in Minneapolis,we’d still have less than a dozen members. I’d hardly call that any sort of significant indication about anything within the larger metro population. A few years ago, I remember a miserable attempt at a demonstration atthe Capitol in St. Paul by these buttheads. IIRC there were maybe 10 or 12 uniformed demonstrators, maybe 20 or 30 sympathizers and several hundred vocal anti-racists staging a counter-protest. The White Power movement isn’t exactly thriving in the Twin Cities (but you can find it if you drive west into the barren rural areas of North Dakota and Montana). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/72 "2005-06-10T19:32:37Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Yeah, sure they are. You’re aware that the midwest, not the southeast, was pretty much the real stronghold of the Ku Klux Klan in the 20th century? You’re aware that at one time the Klan pretty much owned the state government of Indiana? You’re aware the American Nazi party has its HQ in Illinois? Why yes, I am aware of all of those things. I am also aware of a certain amount of racism still endemic in the Midwest. I am also aware that the period of Klan strength in the Midwest was 80 years ago and that it was [disbanded in 1944, sixty-one years ago,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan) and can hardly be used against the modern Midwest (though other groups have used the name since then). And the [American Nazi Party](http://www.meta-religion.com/Extremism/White_extremism/American_nazi_party/american_nazi_party.htm) is headquartered in Eastpointe, Michigan, not Illinois. Still the upper midwest, but see Dio’s post about “miniscule minorities.” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/73 "2005-06-10T19:42:10Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > I suppose its a matter of what is seen as decorum. Absolutely! There are some things you just don’t DO in public. Kissing your spouse and burning a cross on your neighbor’s lawn are just two of them. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/74 "2005-06-10T20:21:42Z")
Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there’s more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman’s teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/75 "2005-06-10T21:03:57Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there’s more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman’s teeth. Or like not reading the FBI’s [Hate Crimes Statistics Report](http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03hc.pdf) for 2003 for racially motivated hate crimes, with 154 in Texas and 152 in Minnesotta. ---
**Author:** ![LindyHopper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@LindyHopper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LindyHopper)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/76 "2005-06-10T21:08:53Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there’s more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman’s teeth. True, although it depends on what you mean by the phrase “more racism”. I would argue that racism in the South is more _pervasive_ and accepted among the community at large, but _not_ that individual racial incidents are more violent or intense. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/77 "2005-06-10T21:12:19Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > A “real jerk”? > > I thought the victim was a “mentally retarded man” who functioned “at the level of a twelve-year-old.” In my opinion, the question of his being a jerk isn’t even worth asking. On the contrary, understanding the motives of why people do seemingly bizarre things is always worth doing. Three points: 1. He need only be a “real jerk” from the viewpoint of the people on the jury for the payback idea to be true. He could be an “absolute saint” in my eyes or yours, but if those jurors disliked him, it’d explain his behavior. 2. Nothing about being a mentally retarded man who functioned at the level of a twelve-year-old precludes his being a jerk: folks with mental retardation can be every bit as awful or as wonderful as folks without mental retardation. 3. Even if he’s the world’s biggest loser jerkwad, that’s in no way, shape, or form an **excuse** for having a “he got what’s coming to him” attitude. I merely offered it as a **hypothesis** for why a horrible juror might have let those criminals off so lightly. My other conjectures (that the black jurors buy into the racist attitudes against black people, and that the black jurors were intimidating into going along with the results) stand beside it: none of them excuse the verdict, only attempt to consider explanations for it. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/78 "2005-06-10T21:13:57Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Trying to get an otherwise reasonable, and personally non-racist, southerner to admit that there’s more racism in the south than in other parts of the country is like pulling Superman’s teeth. I agree. I don’t know why the denial is so strong. Maybe they don’t spend any time outside of the south, and they really don’t know that things aren’t like that everywhere else. I travel all over the country and I can’t recall ever hearing a racial slur or bigoted remark made to me by a stranger (I’m white) outside of the south. In the deep south/Texas, I often get one before I get out of the airport. People feel it perfectly acceptable to comment to other white people about “those people” or “those kind”. There is a very pervasive “us” and 'them" attitude. It just isn’t that way in other places. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/79 "2005-06-10T21:14:14Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > He could be an “absolute saint” in my eyes or yours, but if those jurors disliked him, it’d explain his behavior.\ That should read “explain their behavior,” not “his.” Sorry for any confusion that might cause. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/80 "2005-06-10T21:29:55Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > I agree. I don’t know why the denial is so strong. Maybe they don’t spend any time outside of the south, and they really don’t know that things aren’t like that everywhere else. > > I travel all over the country and I can’t recall ever hearing a racial slur or bigoted remark made to me by a stranger (I’m white) outside of the south. In the deep south/Texas, I often get one before I get out of the airport. People feel it perfectly acceptable to comment to other white people about “those people” or “those kind”. There is a very pervasive “us” and 'them" attitude. It just isn’t that way in other places. Well, since we’re sharing anecdotes, the most bigotry I ever encountered was in Philadelphia, Boston, and Minneapolis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663.md?page=5)