# Old South racism alive and well in Texas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663 "2005-06-09T22:38:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/161 "2005-06-13T19:21:07Z")
> [@](#): > > **Lamar** : When you travel outside of the south, do you get strangers making comments about racial minorities to you? That happens to me often when I travel in the south, and virtually nowhere else. No, I don’t hear racial slurs outside the South either. Can you explain to me why Southerners who travel outside the South change their language styles around you? The only time I do hear any kind of regular put down of minorities is by innuendo – twice a year from two certain semi-family visitors. The derogatory term is not used, but inferiority is implied. Anyone who is not white is automatically inferior. Also, anyone with a Southern drawl is also inferior. Both are well-educated and from New England. They are the most openly bigotted people that I know. I do _not_ think they are typical of Northerners. **eleanorigby** , I take you at your word when you say that the situation is different in Memphis and I ask you to do the same for me in Nashville. I am very sensitized to language and its derogatory uses. I began teaching English in 1969 and asked to be placed in an integrated high school. I taught in inner city schools until I retired 20 years later. That was by choice. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/162 "2005-06-13T19:56:43Z")
> [@](#): > > **Max** : I also note that, as always happens in threads of this sort, many Southerners are popping up and saying "But I’m not racist! How can you say I’m racist? Cite? I don’t think anyone here has been attacked as being racist or felt the need to defend themselves as not being racist. If I am mistaken, a cite will be appreciated. > [@](#): > > And look at all the problems you guys have! And we’re getting better! And see, by grouping us all together like this, you’re just as bigoted as you’re accusing us of being." I leave as an exercise to the reader the logical problems with each of those responses. The South continues to have racial problems. When a Northerner points at a racial incident in the South and invokes the “Old South” label, he is invoking a stereotype of the bigoted Southerner which relies largely on the South’s ties to slavery which ended 140 years ago. The irony is that the North’s ties to slavery ended 140-210 years ago (approximately). The North continues to have racial problems. The South has admitted to its problems all along. No one here has said there are no problems. But there is no crime in acknowledging that we’ve made progress. What is illogical about that? Are you _that_ short-sighted? Why isn’t it bigotry to promote the idea that Southerners are racially prejudiced? I don’t think you realize how often stereotypes against Southerners are brought up – even here at SDMB where we are supposed to be fighting ignorance, not promoting it. You wouldn’t believe have saturated the media is with stupid Southerner stereotypes. Of course, you may think that it is normal to promote the idea that a group of people are stupid in comparison to another group. I see not reason for prejudice or bigotry wherever it is found. If that is illogical to you, maybe you can explain why. Personally, I would like to hear still more from African-Americans who have travelled around the country. **Dob** , how do you know that was the official senior picture? That sounds really bizarre! ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/163 "2005-06-13T20:41:19Z")
**Zoe** --no problem. I feel I must clarify something. My father works at UT–where he hears this shit is in his (all)white suburban neighborhood. I have not been down in a few years and dont’ know if the neighborhood is more integrated or not. I DO know that my parents would welcome some diversity with open arms. No, I don’t know why they bought in the neighborhood that they did–it certainly wasn’t racially motivated, one way or another. Frankly, I think that alot of upper middle class white folk live in a bubble that time forgot-no matter the region of country. But, to chime in here with some good ole Northern bigotry–I have heard the same shit(more rarely) from folks in my neighborhood (about 60% white, 25% AA and 5% other). By no means do I claim that the South is the only racist area of the country. But the thread is specifically about Southern racism and the story involved here would have had a much different outcome for those"good ole boys" (excuse me while I puke) than it did, if it had been tried elsewhere. I would like to think that the verdict would have been different outside of Texas, but don’t claim to know enough about the Deep South to be able to say that with any degree of certainty. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/164 "2005-06-13T20:52:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Oh, lordy, ain’t that the truth. Their green beans are … [shudder] … _crunchy_. This New York yankee thinks that green beans can be enjoyed in no other way. I suppose there must be deeper divides between north and south than racial politics. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/165 "2005-06-13T21:03:05Z")
**Zoe** The South’s ties to slavery didn’t end 140 years ago, it ended 40 years ago with the Voting Rights Act. That’s a big deal. I am by no means saying that the North is pure here, but a lot of the stauts quo in the South, simply wasn’t allowed here. Did it happen, yes…but it wasn’t _expected or accepted_ as it was in the South…and of course there’s a difference between the cities, country and burbs…in Upstate NY Confederate flags are not out of place…so I guess it depends on where and when you are. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/166 "2005-06-13T22:26:24Z")
> [@Nicodemus2004](#): > > Just because the one side doesn’t make unsubstansiated accusations like the other side, this tends to support the claim? Stupid reasoning. Perhaps, but not necessarily unsound. Look, I’ve never spent meaningful time in the deep South (the closest I’ve come is spring break in South Carolina during college, and a few days visiting friends and relatives in Virginia). I’ve also never seen studies convincingly demonstrating comparative levels of racism between states, although (as requested earlier) if anyone can point me towards some, I’m eager to learn. Thus, all I have to go on is anecdotal evidence, which is pretty much guaranteed to be unsubstantiated, unless someone says “I’ve spent 3 years in the south without hearing the N-word, and here’s a complete video recording of those 26,280 consecutive days which you can examine for yourself” or “well, I heard the N-word three times in the airport alone, and here are notarized audio tapes of those incidents”. And I’ve read many posts from dopers claiming that, based on their personal experience of living in and travelling to the South, there is more blatant and quasi-accepted racism there than elsewhere. What should I do, just ignore all of those posts until I get Proof-with-a-capital-P? So, while this does seem silly, I’ve read enough of those posts to believe that there’s a reasonable level of such racism in the South. On the other hand, I’ve never read anything to give me that same belief about other parts of the country, and I’ve lived in at least three of them (noCal, soCal and suburban Philly) without seeing that level of racism myself. Thus, I’ve drawn the conclusion that I’ve drawn. If anyone wants to present some actual evidence to the contrary (and **Lib** ’s hate crime link is a step in the right direction), or present me with a convincing argument why so many dopers would be making shit up, perhaps my mind will be changed. > [@](#): > > _I think all the people of California are jew-hating-Nazis and the Palo Alto bunch is the worst of all._ Say it often enough and mental-midgets will believe it to be FACT. If the Californians say “Hey, we’re not like that. I don’t know anyone like that, there are those type anywhere you go” they respond with “See! Their protests prove my point!”. If you have studied the replys as you said surely you noticed that those who live there say “I don’t hear it all the time, practically never.” Those who don’t live there and seek to support their position say “Oh yeah, I can’t leave the house without hearing the N word when in the South” I’m not sure what your point is. I have seen many posts from dopers, in this thread and others, who have lived or travelled extensively in the South, who see more racism on display there than in other parts of the country. If a grand conspiracy formed in which dozens of otherwise honest dopers attempted to convince someone that Palo Alto was full of nazis, well, they might well succeed, at least for a while. Like I said, what’s your point? > [@](#): > > To the War being about Slavery, I get the impression you knew the stupidity behind this statement before you made it. Yes and no. I don’t think “the civil war was fought about slavery” is a 100% correct statement. But it’s WAY closer to true than “the civil war was NOT fought about slavery”. Slavery was both the single biggest dividing issue between North and South, and the catalyst that set off the conflict. It’s somewhat arguable to what extent the North was fighting to end slavery, although it’s certainly not a slam dunk that that was NOT the case. But it’s much less arguable that the South was fighting to maintain slavery. > [@](#): > > It was a complex and involved process that let up to war and the issue of slavery was raised in responce to the threat of England and France preparing to recognize the CSA as a sovern nation, You’re referring to the timing of the emancipation proclamation? So you’re saying that before that, if you’d asked people “is slavery a primary cause of this war” they would have denied it? Or are you saying something else? > [@](#): > > I only ask that people don’t accept the sound-bite version of the causes of the war and the division between the States and the effects it still has on perceptions to this day. Nor should people dismiss the sound bite, either for political reasons, or in order to sound learned. The truth is more complicated than a sound bite, but that doesn’t mean that the sound bite is wrong. > [@](#): > > _Prejudice_ is to _Pre-Judge_ without first hand knowledge. Sometimes those who are the loudest accusers have the greatest guilt. And I hope you’ll note that I have not accused anyone of anything. I think the South, as a region, has a racism problem. California has its own problems, but that doesn’t mean that they apply to me, specifically. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/167 "2005-06-13T22:33:26Z")
> [@Coffee Manic](#): > > I rarely knee-jerk, and I try not to be snide. I do not post drivebys, neither do I ignore rebuttals. Now what were you saying about personal invectives? Well, if I misinterpreted your post, which is certainly possible, I apologize. Nonetheless, there’s a difference between insulting one of your posts and calling you stupid. Anyhow, now that we’re bestest buddies, I’ll move on with the rest of your post. > [@](#): > > Anyway, my thoughts on the display of the Confederate flag are complex. The various state and local governments should not display it because it is a symbol of an attempt to dissolve the Union, because it is a symbol of slavery, and because whatever way of life it represents is long gone (and is largely a romantic dream that never actually existed.) There are exceptions to that, of course. Teachers should be able to display the Stars and Bars during lessons on the Civil War, just as they might display a Union Jack during a lesson on the American Revolution. A teacher should not be able to display one during a lesson on economics or in Health class without a darn good reason. I can see no reason for having one fly over a state capitol, and the only reason for flying one over a county courthouse is if it’s part of some tourist or historical setting. I agree with everything in this paragraph. > [@](#): > > Individuals, however, who wish to display it should be allowed to. I agree with this also, with a few possible exceptions. For instance, school dorm rooms are not private property, and it’s not quite clear when the same rules should apply and when they shouldn’t. However, to me, the real question is not whether people should be ALLOWED to (of course they should), but to what extent they’re being assholes by doing so. Your thoughts on that? Anyhow, given the very-reasonable positions you espoused in this post, what, precisely was the point of your original post? > [@you](#): > > Slavery was allowed in the US. Is the US flag likewise tainted with racism? ---
**Author:** ![Coffee\_Manic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b77776/32.png) [@Coffee\_Manic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coffee_Manic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/168 "2005-06-13T23:11:39Z")
> [@](#): > > However, to me, the real question is not whether people should be ALLOWED to (of course they should), but to what extent they’re being assholes by doing so. Your thoughts on that? That would depend on their reasoning for displaying the Confederate flag. Six Flags over Texas is not engaging in assholery – it was one of the “six” flags that did, indeed, fly over Texas. Jimmy Joe Bob in his 4X4 full of beer cans with the flag draped across his back windshield is probably of the opinion that _them niggers need to go back where they came from_. Jimmy Joe Bob is an asshole in this, as he is in almost every other facet of his limited understanding. The only question is this: Is Jimmy Joe Bob a mean and hateful person by choice, or does he just not know any better? > [@](#): > > Anyhow, given the very-reasonable positions you espoused in this post, what, precisely was the point of your original post? > > > [@me](#): > > > > Slavery was allowed in the US. Is the US flag likewise tainted with racism? Hope I didn’t screw up the nested quotes. The point was simple – the US flag is also tainted with racism. Racism was written into the very foundation of this country, and it remained in place until only very recently. Could a Black man vote for President prior to the Civil War? No. That puts a pretty definite taint of racism directly on the US flag. Now, we can discuss _levels_ of tainting or the differences between racism and slavery, but the fact remains that racism has been (and probably still is) part and parcel of the US as a nation. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/169 "2005-06-13T23:34:44Z")
> [@Coffee Manic](#): > > Could a Black man vote for President prior to the Civil War? No. That’s actually not true. In New York, for example, until 1820, there was no racial requirement for sufferage. After 1820, one was introduced, and in the 1846 constitution, it said that blacks could vote if they lived in the state for a time period 3 times as long as the time period for white voters, and paid a poll tax. In fact, at the time of the ratification of the Constitution, the only states that had racial qualifications in their constitutions regarding sufferage were South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia, Maryland and Delaware. At the time of the Civil War, at least some blacks could vote in New York, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, and Massachussets. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/170 "2005-06-14T00:12:19Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Personally, I would like to hear still more from African-Americans who have travelled around the country. I have only had the word “nigger” thrown at me two times in my life. Once was when I was in the Panhandle. The other was when I was in New Jersey. My opinion? I think the South is where incidents like the one cited in the OP are more likely to occur. If you want to meet people who are racist but think they aren’t? Go north. ---
**Author:** ![Coffee\_Manic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b77776/32.png) [@Coffee\_Manic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coffee_Manic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/171 "2005-06-14T00:18:35Z")
> [@](#): > > In fact, at the time of the ratification of the Constitution, the only states that had racial qualifications in their constitutions regarding sufferage were South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia, Maryland and Delaware. At the time of the Civil War, at least some blacks could vote in New York, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, and Massachussets. I did not know that. Thanks, Captain Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Coffee\_Manic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b77776/32.png) [@Coffee\_Manic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coffee_Manic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/172 "2005-06-14T00:40:07Z")
I’m sure that this applies to this discussion, somehow: > [@](#): > > Lynchings reached a peak of 230 in 1892, but they were prevalent well into the 1930s. Twenty lynchings were reported in 1935. > > During that time, nearly 200 anti-lynching bills were introduced in Congress, and three passed the House. Seven presidents between 1890 and 1952 petitioned Congress to pass a federal law. > > But the Senate, with Southern conservatives wielding their filibuster powers, refused to act. With the enactment of civil rights laws in the 1960s and changes in national attitudes, the issue faded away. from [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050613/ap\_on\_go\_co/lynching\_apology](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050613/ap_on_go_co/lynching_apology) Just saw it on Yahoo’s front page, so I thought I’d mention it. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/173 "2005-06-14T00:45:35Z")
> [@Coffee Manic](#): > > Jimmy Joe Bob in his 4X4 full of beer cans with the flag draped across his back windshield is probably of the opinion that _them niggers need to go back where they came from_. Jimmy Joe Bob is an asshole in this, as he is in almost every other facet of his limited understanding. The only question is this: Is Jimmy Joe Bob a mean and hateful person by choice, or does he just not know any better? Actually, Jimmy Joe Bob is an asshole, obviously, and is hardly worth discussing. The really tricky cases are ones like this: [The Confederate Flag Prom Dress](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42046) Now, this girl MIGHT be a majorly racist asshole. But it’s also quite likely that she’s basically non-racist in her day to day life, truly despises the racist aspects of Southern history, but views the confederate flag as a symbol of regional pride and “heritage”, without necessarily thinking too hard about precisely what that means. Now, I still claim that her dress-wearing is assholish, in that it’s so easy and common (and logical) for black students to interpret the flag as a symbol of hate and racism, and I think she’s being an insensitive tool, but she’s a far more complex and interesting case than Jimmy Joe Bob. The question of “under what circumstances should one not do something to avoid offending others” is an interesting and non-trivial one. To me, there are two important considerations: (1) Is the number of people offended sizeable? (2) Is their claim to offense one with which I sympathize? Not displaying the confederate flag is supported by both (1) and (2). Whereas, saying “african american” instead of “black” is supported by neither, as (1) no one seems to care, and (2) it’s a stupid phrase with stupid justifications. (Not that I’m saying that something automatically gets done if it fits both of those considerations and not otherwise, or anything of that sort…) > [@](#): > > The point was simple – the US flag is also tainted with racism. I’m sorry, but I still think this comparison is just laughable. If someone says that they’re bothered by something due to strong and clear connections between it and some horrible thing, and your response is “well, shouldn’t you also be bothered by something else, as it also has connections to that thing?”, but these connections are vastly more tenuous, it really seems (to me) like an attempt to trivialize the original concerns. For instance: A: I wish you wouldn’t keep singing “MacArthur Park” all the time. As you know, my father had a heart attack and died during a performance of that, and it was the last thing he heard, and it makes me think of him. B: But there was a lot of OXYGEN at that performance, and the last thing he breathed before dying was OXYGEN. Shouldn’t OXYGEN disturb you also? It’s not so much that B is a ridiculous comparison (and my B is FAR more ridiculous than yours), it’s that it seems to be a bit of a slap in the face because it shouldn’t even be necessary to spell out the difference between the song and oxygen, or between the confederate flag and the US flag. At least, that’s how I see it. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/174 "2005-06-14T00:47:03Z")
> [@Coffee Manic](#): > > I’m sure that this applies to this discussion, somehow: Well, if our standard is that decades-old racist acts in the North are irrelevant, then decades-old racist acts in the South should be irrelevant, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Coffee\_Manic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b77776/32.png) [@Coffee\_Manic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coffee_Manic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/175 "2005-06-14T01:05:39Z")
> [@](#): > > If someone says that they’re bothered by something due to strong and clear connections between it and some horrible thing, and your response is “well, shouldn’t you also be bothered by something else, as it also has connections to that thing?”, but these connections are vastly more tenuous, it really seems (to me) like an attempt to trivialize the original concerns. I think this is where we differ. I think that singling out an obvious bogeyman, while ignoring bogeymanishness (wow) in other places, is a trivialization. We no longer hate the thing, we hate something that stands for the thing. It’s easy to view the Confederate flag with disdain because of it’s ties to racism, slavery, and general assholery, while lauding the American flag as a symbol of freedom and justice – but that view is incorrect, and it trivializes the facts that many Northerners were (and are) every bit as racist as their Southern counterparts, that slavery was tolerated and even supported for many years by the Northern states, and that many lynchings of Black people took place north of the Mason-Dixon line. Does the American flag bear some taint of racism and slavery? To me, yes. An imperfect analogy as to why could be the mother of an abused child – a mother who knows what’s going on, but who doesn’t make any move to stop the abuse. She bears some taint of that abuse, even though she has never participated in the abuse, itself. (disclaimer: not all mothers of abused children are aware that the abuse is ongoing, while others know that it’s happening, try to stop it, but fail, often in fear for their lives – these are not the mothers I’m referring to.) As to the dress, that sort of thing doesn’t really happen often enough for me to get worked up about. If it did, it wouldn’t be news. The lady in question is exhibiting several symptoms of assholery, primarily insensitivity. So I think we agree there. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/176 "2005-06-14T01:14:43Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I have only had the word “nigger” thrown at me two times in my life. Once was when I was in the Panhandle. The other was when I was in New Jersey. > > My opinion? I think the South is where incidents like the one cited in the OP are more likely to occur. > > If you want to meet people who are racist but think they aren’t? Go north. I’ll give my lame, two cent opinion about regional racial attitudes **monsto** , 1. The South is usually honest about their feelings 2. The North and Mid-west regions like to hide it. 3. California is odd, “We all get along–just as long as you go back to your neighborhood at the end of the day.” I’ve lived in all three areas. Only after living in the Washington, DC metro area for seven years was I able to see it in California (and my own BTW). However, give California its due-- the racial attitudes seemed to involve everybody–sorta of a racial anti-harmony if you will… White/Hispanic, Black/Hispanic, Philiphino/Japanese, etc. I’ve heard Hawaii is full of racial animosity between all of the asians/oceania groups. Can any Doper out there substantiate this rumor? ---
**Author:** ![Coffee\_Manic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b77776/32.png) [@Coffee\_Manic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coffee_Manic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/177 "2005-06-14T01:17:58Z")
Also, I apologize for my earlier snarkiness. You’re plenty smart and a worthy opponent. And I just figured out what “The Pit” is for. I’m not at all certain that I meant to be in here… ---
**Author:** ![boofuu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@boofuu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boofuu)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/178 "2005-06-14T01:21:15Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Personally, I would like to hear still more from African-Americans who have travelled around the country. Without starting a “my racism is bigger than yours” thread, I will give you a few examples from my life. Keep in mind I am a well educated 27 year old woman who grew up in Brooklyn NY. I attended a nearly all-black elementary school and a nearly all white high school , both in NY, and a public university in the South. My friends are all of various races and nationalities. _skip to the final paragraph if you just want my conclusion_ This happened in NY: I was once threatened with a machete by a Korean store owner for supposedly bruising his fruit. He called me a nigger and other things. I was 9. Then and now, in retrospect, I did not consider that to be a racist incident. Probably because the man was a minority and a foreigner. I believe racism is prejudice with power. My mentioned “INS” to him and he promptly cooled down. I did not feel threatened. In NY, the “racism” I have perceived came more in the condescending “you speak so well!” comments from white people who seem to find it amazing that I, you know, read books. These are small comments, nothing blatant, but they hurt very much. I feel like I have to prove I am as good or better than anyone else. After awhile you look for them all the time and it is not a nice way to live. I find this more in academic settings now where educated white people will slip with a comment like that. Now, I’ve moved down the Mason-Dixon line to NC. I have spent most of my time in more open cities, Wilmington and Chapel Hill. I was APALLED the first time I was called a nigger here. Despite it being the South, and may not be deepest darkest Mississippi, I was not expecting it. No one expects the racism or the Spanish Inquistion. I was walking down Franklin St. and joking with friends. I happened to make some monkey noises as the punchline to a joke. These two white men were walking behind us, I will call them rednecks, cause you know the type I mean. One turns to the other and says “I told you all them niggers is monkeys.” I stopped dead in my tracks and was stricken dumb for a minute, no exaggeration. I have never felt more violated in my life. I felt dirty. To this day, I will not look at toy monkey, touch a toy monkey, see them in a zoo, do anything that even remotely resembles simian-like behavior in public. I was also refused service in a fucking Waffle House once because I was accompanied by two white males. The staff acted like we were not there. There were cops in the “restaurant” and when we complained they said that maybe we should just leave. Do you know that the only requirement to work in a Waffle House is to have a 5th grade education? Anyway, irony was I was with one of the most bigoted white men I am sure I will ever meet. We were only together because we were in the same debate club and he could not vote me out. On the upshot, I got a free meal voucher at any Waffle House. I call it my race card. And my freshman year roommates, from the city of Liddy Dole and Cheerwine, as they liked to tell me, they require more room and memories than I feel necessary to use. So, what does this all mean? Nothing, other than I like to talk about myself and that I have had more bad experiences in the South, I guess. I think youwill find most Black people who have spent time in the North and South will be able to spot more in the South. I cannot say that it really means anything. Are we looking for examples to “prove” the point that the good ole south ain’t so good? Are Northerners more enlightened? I don’t know that all the examples in the world will prove or really indicate anything. They will certainly not stop anything. The bigger question is how will we make sure that cases like the subject of OP do not happen again. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/179 "2005-06-14T01:23:44Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Cite? I don’t think anyone here has been attacked as being racist or felt the need to defend themselves as not being racist. If I am mistaken, a cite will be appreciated. Hmmm. I’ve reread this entire thread (oh, the work I should be doing instead of doping) and admit that I can’t find a clear example of that. At least in this thread. But to quote the learned **Boofuu** : > [@](#): > > I also think Southerners are automatically defensive when it comes to the subject (and this is borne from constant accusation of racism). > [@](#): > > The South continues to have racial problems. I agree. > [@](#): > > When a Northerner points at a racial incident in the South and invokes the “Old South” label, he is invoking a stereotype of the bigoted Southerner which relies largely on the South’s ties to slavery which ended 140 years ago. I’m not sure I see your point. The “Old South” was famously, and proudly, racist, up until quite recently. When racist things happen, is it preposterous to use that label and claim a connection? What would strike me as preposterous would be to start referring to “Old South” racism in contexts in which there were NOT racist occurrences, ie, continually refer to southern states as “Old South” states in a sneering way when discussing, say, their principle exports. > [@](#): > > The irony is that the North’s ties to slavery ended 140-210 years ago (approximately). Sure, slavery ended in the North just a hairblink before it ended in the South, in historical terms. But in the North it was (overall) voluntary, whereas in the South it was enforced by the bloodiest and most damaging event in US history, and resentment of that event led to 100+ years of severe and open prejudice. I think your comparison is pretty meaningless. > [@](#): > > The North continues to have racial problems. Agreed. > [@](#): > > The South has admitted to its problems all along. Eh. Sometimes. > [@](#): > > But there is no crime in acknowledging that we’ve made progress. Indeed. And I greatly respect that progress. And I also acknowledge and praise the fact that so many of the leaders in the fight against racism have themselves been Southern. > [@](#): > > Why isn’t it bigotry to promote the idea that Southerners are racially prejudiced? There’s a difference between assuming that someone is racially prejudiced just because he’s southern, which is bigotry (albeit not nearly as harmful as, say, beating someone to a pulp) and stating that the South, as a region, has more of a problem with racism than other parts of the country. That’s a crucial distinction. > [@](#): > > Personally, I would like to hear still more from African-Americans who have travelled around the country. As would I. Anyhow, to sum up, I’m not trying to accuse any individual person of racism, belittle the strides that have been made in racial tolerance over the years, or claim that there is no racism outside the South. However, I do continue to believe that the statement “there is more general cultural acceptance of racist attitudes in the South than in other parts of the country” is a true one, in fact a very clearly true one. I also think “there is more racism in the South than in other parts of the country” is a true statement, although a bit less of a slam dunk, as hidden racism is even harder to quantify than more open racism. ---
**Author:** ![Coffee\_Manic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b77776/32.png) [@Coffee\_Manic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coffee_Manic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663/180 "2005-06-14T01:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve heard Hawaii is full of racial animosity between all of the asians/oceania groups. Can any Doper out there substantiate this rumor? I haven’t really been in Hawaii all that much. But I can say that I’ve seen Black servicemen refused service in a Japanese-owned restaurant in Japan, simply because they were Black. I’ve seen Filipinos physically chase Japanese people out of a restaurant in the Philippines. I’ve seen a Japanese-American serviceman refused service in a Korean bar – he had actually ordered and been served when the owner (?) came over and _took his food away_ because he was part Japanese. I’ve seen bars and restaurants in the Philippines which sported large signs “NO AMERICANS” – and believe you me, Americans don’t want to go inside. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-south-racism-alive-and-well-in-texas/307663.md?page=10)