Nothing wrong with a little kissin’ cousins. 
First cousins 61 times removed, if there were as many Lords of Andunië as there were Kings of Numenor.
46 times removed, by my count. (List provided only upon request.)
“That star” is Eärendil, father of Elros and Elrond, not Elros, founder of Numeonor. And I thought Elrond said he wouldn’t allow Arwen and Aragorn to marry unless Aragorn were already King?
QtM is right that the Evenstar (Earendil) is Arwen’s grandpa, but you are correct in pointing out that Earendil’s son Elros (Arwen’s uncle) is the founder of Numenor.
Yes. Echoes of Thingol, who set a price on his daughter’s hand which he believed no man could meet. Both were wrong.
But Thingol’s requirement carried the seeds of his own doom in it. Had he never come into possession of the Silmaril, he would not have been confronted and killed by jewel-crazed Dwarves. Nor would the surviving sons of Fëanor murdered his grandson and heir and destroyed his kingdom in so doing.
Of course, neither would Eärendil have been able to pierce the enchantments set around the Blessed Lands to persuade the Valar to attack Angband without both the Silmaril and the attack on the Falas to boot Elwing to fly it to him. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
I didn’t say the star wasn’t Arwen’s grandpa. I just said it wasn’t the guy who founded Numenor.
Two questions:
First, when Pippin and Merry are talking about seeing moving trees in the forests near Buckland, was it implied that the Entwives live there?
Second, what would happen if some random dweller in ME decided to try and sale into the west? Would they actually reach the Undying Lands, or is there some sort of magic needed to get there?
Magic is needed, since the Change of the World. When the Valar removed themselves from the world, the earth, which had been flat, became bent. So those attempting to sail to the Utter West could not get there. To sail the straight path requires the blessing of the Valar.
There is no knowing whether the Entwives passed through the areas where the Shire later came to exist, but at one time Ents roamed father than they did at the time of the War of the Rings. The Ents are as old as the Elves, Eagles, and Dwarves. Recall that Galadriel calls Treebeard “eldest”. And she came over the Grinding Ice!
Sorry. I couldn’t quite tell what you were saying in this exchange:
You say “‘That star’ is… not Elros”. QtM identifies the star as Arwen’s grandpa, but goes on to add “who founded Numenor”. He also mentions that she’s Elros’s neice, which means he knows that Elros is not her grandfather and therefore is not “that star”.
His mistake was identifying Arwen’s grandfather as the founder of Numenor. I see now this is what you were trying to point out, but…
“To tell you the truth, in all this confusion I lost count.”
It might be helpful to quote the Prof. on this one:
And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallonë, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.
I always loved that one…
There are a few cites in HOMES where Earendil is referred to as the founder of the Numenorian race. Earendil did indeed use the Silmaril to guide the Edain to their new home. But he never did set foot on mortal lands again. So for everyday purposes, Elros is indeed the founder of the Kingdom of Numenor. For ultra-uber JRRT geek who won’t admit he screwed up purposes, I am correct. 
As for the line from Earendil to Aragorn, From: http://www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of-arda/Humans-index-tables/Human.htm
Kings of Numenor: Elros to Ar-Pharazon. 26 in number.
Kings of Arnor: Elendil to Earendur. 10 in number.
Kings of Arthedain: Amlaith to Arvedui. 15 in number.
Chieftains of Dunedain: Aranarth to Aragorn II. 16 in number.
That adds up to 68 generations from Earendil to Aragorn, IF we posit the same number of generations from Silmarien (Mother of Valandil 1st lord of Andunië) to Elendil as from Menendur to Ar-Pharazon (the royal line).
Arwen was 1st cousin to Noliman Vardamir. That makes Arwen 1st cousin 65 times removed to Aragorn.
Sample, how do you figure only 49 generations between Earendil and Aragorn???
You asked for it…
Arwen is first cousins with Vardamir. Now for the removeds:
Tar-Arnandil -> Tar-Bendil -> Silmarlen -> Valandil -> Earendur -> Arnandil -> Elendil -> Isildur -> Valandil -> Eldacar -> Arantar -> Taroil -> Tarondor -> Valandur -> Elandur -> Earendur -> Arnfaith -> Beleg -> Mailor -> Celepham -> Celebrindor -> Mahegil -> Argeleb -> Aneleg -> Araphor -> Argeleb -> Anegil -> Aneleg -> Aranal -> Araphani -> Anedui -> Aranarth -> Arahael -> Aranuir -> Arahir -> Aragorn -> Araglas -> Arahad -> Aragost -> Aravorn -> Arahad -> Arassuil -> Arathorn -> Argenul -> Arador -> Arathorn -> Aragorn
So I miscounted the first time – 47 rather than 46 times removed.
Apologies in advance for typos – I typed that without looking at the screen or proofing – too much time. I also have not bothered with I and II designations.
Um, Sample? You left out a hell of a lot of generations of Andunië lords, you know.
The Andunie lineage goes like this:
Silmarien
Valandil 1st Lord of Andunië
Unnamed Lords 2-14 of Andunië
Earendur 15th Lord of Andunië
Unnamed 16th Lord of Andunië
Numendil
Amandil
Elendil
Etc.
You forgot Numendil too. 15 generations left out!
That makes Arwen and Aragorn 1st cousins 62 times removed! The Lords of Andunië probably had longer lives than the Kings of Numenor in later years as they remained faithful.
The above table is based on ROTK appendices and writings in UT.
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rwf.downing/snumen.htm
Thanks, Qadgop, I’ll update my tables.
As to the OP,
I do understand your feelings but not for the same reason. There have been countless times in my life when I thought no one else knew about something I enjoyed: The Hitchhiker’s Guide (which I first read when I was 12), Good Eats (which I first saw during a bout of insomnia, at about 2:00 AM), Dune, Jim Carrey (I loved Once Bitten) etc. When I found out exactly how many people liked these things, I was a bit depressed. It was supposed to be for my own enjoyment.
As for JRR, I first read the books because the movies were coming out. I wanted to experience them as he intended before I saw PJ’s interpretation. The Hobbit is now my favorite book. I love the other 3 (or 1 depending on how you look at it). In the last 4 years, I have probably read each book at least 5 times. I’m almost ready to tackle The Silmarlillion ( I think).
I’m not at your level. I’ll probably never reach QtM’s level. But the fact that I - and others like me - are newbie fans, doesn’t take any of the specialness from you guys. You will always have the depth of knowledge which I don’t have. You may meet more LOTR (movie) fans and amature book fans like me more frequently than you did before. But just think how much more special it will be when you meet a new person with your level of interest. You can have those discussions QtM seems to be looking for and the rest of us will have no clue what the hell you’re talking about.
If I had to make a guess, I’d say the amount of people who will become rabid JRR fans due to the movies, isn’t going to be much greater than the amount of new fans who happened to discover the books over the last 50 or so years. Most of the movie fans don’t have the patience or dedication to amass the knowledge you guys have. Hell, most people in general don’t have that kind of patience. I know I don’t.
I have a huge amount of respect for you guys because of the dedication you put into what you love.
Hmmm… I’m going to have to do some more checking. For example, the link you give lists Tar Meneldur, son of Tar Elendil, among the Kings of Numenor, along with Tar Aldarion and so on – but I believe Aragorn is descended through Tar Meneldur’s brother Silmarlien.
That last name may be misspelt. As you can probably infer from my previous post, I’m working w/ some documents that are difficult to read – I tried long ago printing the known entire lineage of Beor on one 3’x1.5’ sheet of paper (which lives on the wall of my office for whenever I need to refer to it) and the print is frustratingly small but at least I can “get my mind around the big picture” when I need to, or so I thought – hence the obvious errors like Tar Bendil for Tar Elendil. I’m not much into the Numenorian lineage – i’t not my primary interest and I’ve been “getting around to” becoming clear on it for about 10 years – but I should have caught that one inuitively.
So, yes, I omit much of what’s on your list. But are your assumptions valid re the relationship b/t the kings and Aragorn’s lineage? Maybe so, maybe not. Looks like I’m going to have to actually verify all this at last. Can’t get to it for another couple of weeks, but look for a CS thread in late Jan perhaps, unless someone else can provide a definitive source. (Kinda hoping they won’t, so I have an excuse to do this.)
Yikes! Glancing at one of my primary sources for the chart, I see this note (from the source, not mine): “I’d appreciate any help anyone can give me filling in the omissions”. :eek:
After all these years, I’d just forgotten about that little detail!
I believe the lineage is probably accurate (as in Aragorn via Valandil), but there is indeed a gap in the years b/t Valandil and Earendur. And who knows, maybe it’s not accurate after all.
Like I said, more research…
But now, I gotta get to work. I got a meeting with the Bobs.
I’d just like to second the opinion that this story will blow your mind.
Here is a concise telling of the tale. Wow. and I thought my old high school pals were a soap opera.
OK, my übergeek card is going in the trash. I don’t have tables, for crying out loud.
Man! Every time I think I know something, this place sets the bar somewhere up in the stratosphere.