# Old West bullshit facts. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 23, 2018, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612 "2018-06-23T09:15:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/61 "2018-06-25T00:53:11Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > But real statistics show the murder rate in the ‘Old West’ was often in fact sky high, up to 100’s per 100,000 per year. But, besides the specific characteristics not matching classic westerns that well, a lot of them were also transracial or among Natives\*. Again at least that’s distinct from fiction which implies a high murder rate when it’s low. There was a recent discussion here which touched on that for the series “The Alienist”. The murder rate in mid 1890’s NY was in the same ballpark as now’s (ie much lower than say 1990’s). Books and shows which imply eastern cities in the Gilded Age were as violent as the West are also giving a distorted impression (give or take crimes reporting issues, but that doesn’t get you from a few per 100k to over 100). As long as people don’t try to seriously study history by watching TV and movies so what, but that is a lot of people’s source. It even IME creeps into the impressions of people who also read non-fiction history books. Can’t say it never does to me either. > > \*Roth in “American Homicide” gives the example of the Arizona Territory’s rate in 1869-70: 171 per 100k not including murders by Natives, 577 per 100k including murders by Natives. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Western violence. > > I dont know but probably quite high. Remember you’ve got mostly men with few women. Lots of “rot gut” high alcohol content booze. Few diversions such as sports to “let off steam”. Many young men who go into town “looking for fun” which often meant looking for a fight. > > As for racism, if a white person killed an indian, black person, or chinese would they have even reported it as a murder? My understanding is that there was a very high rate of drunken young men in saloons killing one another over real or imagined slights, but that _other_ than that, violent crime was comparatively low. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/62 "2018-06-25T01:10:38Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > My understanding is that there was a very high rate of drunken young men in saloons killing one another over real or imagined slights, but that _other_ than that, violent crime was comparatively low. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/63 "2018-06-25T01:39:45Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Western violence. > > 1. I dont know but probably quite high. Remember you’ve got mostly men with few women. Lots of “rot gut” high alcohol content booze. > > 2. As for racism, if a white person killed an indian, black person, or chinese would they have even reported it as a murder? 1. Very high. And it wasn’t nearly always drunken fighting. Some was basically low level civil conflict: racial, rancher v farmer, Natives living within white society but still pursuing old tribal grudges, etc. 2. This was touched on the thread about “The Alienist”. In general yes, apparently, murders were usually reported. Also note in the example given earlier, in AZ ca. 1870 a large proportion of the murders there were _by_ Natives, though presumably a lot of those were against other Natives. Enough are in the records to give a murder rate around 100 times higher than the US national rate now (though that example is IIRC the highest in the book mentioned). Nobody can prove now what exact % were reported but relatively a lot obviously were relative to the population, and no reason to think Eastern rates were so much lower because lots more murders went unreported in East than West. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/64 "2018-06-25T01:39:59Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > And, _“Morons. I’ve got morons on my team.”_ I have to use this one more than I’d like. :o Tell me about it. My debate team has come to know that quote quite well over the years. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/65 "2018-06-25T01:58:41Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > In the movie Boom Town, Gable’s character first meets Tracy’s character as they are both trying to walk on a single plank, in opposite directions, that is crossing a muddy street in a western town. In general, though, so many westerns are set in the arid southwest that it is not surprising that the streets are dusty instead of muddy. The manure, though, is another story. But on a dusty street you could probably see it well enough to avoid it. It’s kind of like how you almost never see anyone using an outhouse unless it is key to the story. > > In the movie Rio Bravo, I believe John Wayne’s character Sheriff Chance instituted this policy temporarily during an emergency. Otherwise I don’t remember seeing it in a movie. It struck me as hard to enforce, there must have been side streets or alleys that people could sneak into town by. Of course I’ve never seen a genuine old west town in real life. Tombstone had a law about giving up your guns when you entered town. Not that it worked, according to what happened at the OK Corral. ---
**Author:** ![vperry1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee7513/32.png) [@vperry1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vperry1)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/66 "2018-06-25T11:54:03Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Guy goes up to bar. Tells the bartender, “Whisky.” > > Bartender grabs a full bottle of whisky. Opens it. Pours some of it into a glass. Gives glass to man. _And then gives him the “almost full” bottle, too._ :eek: > > Did this ever happen in real life? If so, does the bartender measure how much whisky is left in the bottle when he’s done drink’n, and then charge him accordingly? And how do they guzzle glass upon glass of it with no obvious affects? I’d be on my ass after three shots. ---
**Author:** ![vperry1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee7513/32.png) [@vperry1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vperry1)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/67 "2018-06-25T12:04:22Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > Semi-related: Doc Holliday’s gravestone in Glenwood Springs doesn’t really mark his grave. He’s buried somewhere in Linwood Cemetery but nobody knows exactly where. Same goes for Boot hill in Tombstone. You’d have better luck digging up a WWll submarine when your metal dector goes off than you would finding a body under those markers. Or at least the same body that actually matches the name. ---
**Author:** ![vperry1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee7513/32.png) [@vperry1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vperry1)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/68 "2018-06-25T12:36:35Z")
> [@Majestic\_Lee](#): > > And as for the way gunshot wounds are portrayed… Yup. Everyone shot in the movies died instantly. Sure. It took hours, days, weeks and even months for them to die from their wounds. Tombstone Marshal Fred White lingered for two days before he succumed to Curly Bill Brocius’ gun shot. Tom McLaury lingered for hours, cursing the Earps before he died. More facts: The gunfight didn’t take place at the O.K. Corral, but on the corners of Fremont and 3rd streets, a whole block away. Movies usuall portray a twenty minute gunfight in a wide open lot. The shooting lasted thirty seconds and the lot was no bigger than your living room. Marshal Fred White is always portrayed as an older man in the movies. He was 31 when he was killed. Same goes for the old actors who played John Tunstall in Billy the Kid movies. He was only 24 when he was killed. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/69 "2018-06-25T13:45:01Z")
One of the amusing things about Western movies, is that with rare exception, you can always tell who is going to lose the gunfight; It’s the one that draws first. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/70 "2018-06-25T17:34:40Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > One of the amusing things about Western movies, is that with rare exception, you can always tell who is going to lose the gunfight; It’s the one that draws first. If it’s a fistfight, its the person who loses his hat first. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/71 "2018-06-25T17:42:29Z")
As for tourism, Deadwood South Dakota really pushes this with the whole town practically centered around it from the street performers doing shows, the old cemetery, to all the modern shops, bars, and casinos. One of the best performers is “Calamity Jane”. She really does a great portrayal. In comparison Dodge City Kansas isnt even worth the trip. The “old west” area is basically a strip mall with some cool statues but its so loud with all the cars whizzing by. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/72 "2018-06-25T17:51:51Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Tell me about it. My debate team has come to know that quote quite well over the years. 😃 We hope you can see the moron when you look around. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/73 "2018-06-25T17:59:42Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > One of the amusing things about Western movies, is that with rare exception, you can always tell who is going to lose the gunfight; It’s the one that draws first. Well, as Little Bill says in **Unforgiven** : if you draw too fast, you’re hurrying and you’ll miss. My favorite old west fable: the One Gold Coin. A trail-weary cowboy walks into a saloon. “Gimmie a bottle of whiskey, some oats for my horse, a room for the night, a shave, a bath, a woman, some new clothes, something to eat…” And TING, he throws one gold coin onto the bar. Even in the old west, stuff wasn’t that cheap. **Deadwood** usually got the money stuff right. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/74 "2018-06-25T18:05:07Z")
My first exposure to the gunfight at the OK corral was in the original series Star Trek episode, “Specter of the Gun”. So, now, fifty years later, I still think of the Erps as the villains of the story. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/75 "2018-06-25T18:12:37Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Well, as Little Bill says in **Unforgiven** : if you draw too fast, you’re hurrying and you’ll miss. > > My favorite old west fable: the One Gold Coin. > > A trail-weary cowboy walks into a saloon. “Gimmie a bottle of whiskey, some oats for my horse, a room for the night, a shave, a bath, a woman, some new clothes, something to eat…” And TING, he throws one gold coin onto the bar. Even in the old west, stuff wasn’t that cheap. **Deadwood** usually got the money stuff right. Oh gosh darn, yes, $5 would pay for all that stuff, and more. If you are going for the cheap end. Now a $20 GP would be luxurious. Bottle of cheap booze was 25cents. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/76 "2018-06-25T19:13:24Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Thar’s gold in them thar tourists, and pushing the myth brings them in. The town depends on tourism and has a vested interest in keeping the myth alive. That’s true now and was even then. I can’t remember which one, but a mining town in California had one young fellow kill another in a drunken brawl. He was arrested, tried, found guilty, and hung in a span of about three days. The next day a reporter from New York arrived and was keenly disappointed he’d missed his story. The town obligingly dug up the miscreant and hung him over again. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/77 "2018-06-25T19:46:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That Cowboys wore bowlers not ten gallon or stetsons- false, promulgated mostly by the fact that cowboys did love to dress up and get their pictures taken in suits with a bowler hat. But Teddy wrote that anyone wearing a bowler would get teased and quite possible the hat shot right off his head. Forgive me, but until a real historian convinces me I’m wrong, I’m not sure that the best source of actual working farmhand’s views on what hats were cool and uncool (and the consequences thereof) is really a New York-born-and-raised, Harvard-educated, writer/lawyer/politician who made a career out of portraying himself to Easteners as El Muy Macho. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/78 "2018-06-25T20:06:20Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Gunfight showdowns- two men challenging each other to fight in the street - are the invention of pulp novels. They probably never happened (why would they?). One town did stage them for people passing through as a publicity stunt. Events where two men faced off in the street to duel with pistols were extraordinarily rare, but we can’t say they _never_ happened. The Dave Tufts - Wild Bill Hickok shootout was documented as well as the Luke Short - Jim Courtright duel. But sure, 99.99% of the shootout action we see portrayed on the big and little screen is pure Hollywood BS. The gunfight at the OK Corral has been portrayed as a sort of protracted shootout with lots of reloading and ‘cover me while I make for that wagon’ moments, but in reality the events unfolded at rather close range in under 30 seconds. But that would hardly sate the public’s demand for movie action. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/79 "2018-06-25T20:06:32Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > We hope you can see the moron when you look around. If there’s a mirror around, easily! The quote is usually reserved for students who get “creative” with their between-rounds entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612/80 "2018-06-25T20:26:00Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > ^ Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch? You were only supposed to blow the bloody _doors_ off! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/old-west-bullshit-facts/816612.md?page=5)