# Older tanks reversing **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 18, 2023, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716 "2023-06-18T10:49:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/1 "2023-06-18T10:49:34Z")
This thought popped into my mind while looking at the Soviet era tanks being sported by Russia. I am pretty sure modern tanks have cameras and screens for the driver to see, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a tank with rear-view mirrors. So, from WW1 to relatively recently, how did tank drivers manage to drive in reverse? (I have had the privilege of climbing into a Mark V, an iteration of the English rhomboid design, at the Bovington Tank Museum in the UK, but I was 11 years old at the time) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/2 "2023-06-18T11:32:40Z")
Provided your not in the heat of battle, I would think the tank commander would pop his head out of the turret and give directions. Same could be done using others on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/3 "2023-06-18T12:16:43Z")
Modern tanks do not have rear-view cameras or mirrors. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/4 "2023-06-18T12:18:29Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > So, from WW1 to relatively recently, how did tank drivers manage to drive in reverse? From WW1 until today, if a tank needs to back up in combat, it just backs up. It’s a tank. It does what it wants. If it’s not in combat, it takes two ground-guides to back up. One in the rear, and one in the front to relay the rear guide’s instructions to the front-facing driver. The ground guides are on foot, outside of the tank. Like this video shows: [https://youtu.be/JqzgXKMJZIk?t=178](https://youtu.be/JqzgXKMJZIk?t=178) It’s a Humvee, and it has mirrors, but the ground guide concept is the same. They don’t use the mirrors to go in reverse. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/5 "2023-06-18T13:47:32Z")
Interesting but why not? I get that it’s a tank but that doesn’t mean it can’t get into trouble if it meets a deep ditch or a cliff or whatnot. And in battle personnel outside are going to be at risk. A reversing camera seems a simple addition. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/6 "2023-06-18T15:08:13Z")
In battle, wouldn’t a tank just turn around? I think the turret (and the gun) can still face the bad guys while the tank is driving the other way. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/7 "2023-06-18T15:10:13Z")
The back end of a tank is normally not as heavily armoured as the front, so while the turrent can swing around, if the body turns around it is presenting the most vulnerable aspect to the bad guys. Also, a 3 point turn in a tank might risk off-road landmines. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/8 "2023-06-18T15:48:28Z")
Why would a tank need to do a three-point turn? Aren’t they essentially zero-turn-radius machines? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/9 "2023-06-18T15:55:41Z")
Well yes. But… I think it’s harder on the tracks to spin in place for one. I had a trac-hoe at my house the other day. I have a gravel drive. He still made a three point turn at one point. Also used the hoe to push on the ground to lift the front of the machine off the ground and used the trac’s and hoe to make a tight turn. He may have ben being consider of my drive, but it’s really nothing more than a step up from dirt. /sidenote : trac-hoes are incredible machines, I rented on once /sn ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/10 "2023-06-18T17:18:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why would a tank need to do a three-point turn? Aren’t they essentially zero-turn-radius machines? It’s called a neutral steer. On pavement it will tear the hell out of asphalt so in peacetime it’s not recommended. It’s also a good way to throw a track which is not recommended in war or peace. ---
**Author:** ![FrenchDunadan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frenchdunadan/32/5449_2.png) [@FrenchDunadan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrenchDunadan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/11 "2023-06-18T19:36:28Z")
WW2 era tanks had periscopes on the top of the turret, so the commander could see all around, including the rear. In combat, the driver will follow the orders of his commander, which will look to the rear with the periscope. Out of combat, it’s the two ground guides as Bear\_Nenno said. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/12 "2023-06-18T19:45:59Z")
I believe it was former Chancellor Schmidt during a visit to Italy was caught on an open mike remarking that Italian tanks of WWII had only 2 gears - neutral and reverse. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/13 "2023-06-18T19:51:25Z")
Since the OP has been answered, I’d just like to say that _Older Tanks, Reversing_ [my changes] sounds like the name of a painting. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/14 "2023-06-18T19:55:06Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Modern tanks do not have rear-view cameras or mirrors. I googled this and found many references to modern tanks having backup cameras. The US Army started working on this a long time ago. > **[Tank Crews will be able to ‘Check Six” with new Rear View Camera - Defense...](https://defense-update.com/20070307_drvc.html)** > > US Army tank crews will soon be able to 'watch their back' using new rear-view cameras to be delivered by BAE Systems. Leopard II’s are also being outfitted with rear view cameras: > **[Leopard 2 Main Battle Tank](https://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/)** > > Leopard 2 main battle tank was developed by Krauss-Maffei, now Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW), of Munchen, Germany. The Leopard 2 is… Wiki for the Challenger says it also has a rear view camera for the driver: > **[Challenger 2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2)** > > The FV4034 Challenger 2 (MoD designation "CR2") is a third generation British main battle tank (MBT) in service with the armies of the United Kingdom, Oman, and Ukraine. > It was designed by Vickers Defence Systems (now BAE Systems Land & Armaments) as a private venture in 1986, and was an extensive redesign of the company's earlier Challenger 1 tank. The Ministry of Defence ordered a prototype in December 1988. Despite outward similarities to the Challenger 1, design and technological developm... ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/15 "2023-06-18T20:06:32Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I think it’s harder on the tracks to spin in place for one. Harder than what? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/aEPjfIO5jeg/maxresdefault.jpg "M1A2 Abrams spinning") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEPjfIO5jeg) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/16 "2023-06-18T20:27:15Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Harder than what? I’m probably wrong. I think It would be rougher off road though. Grab a football/basketball sized rock or two I think is more likely go happen ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/17 "2023-06-18T20:45:16Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > This thought popped into my mind while looking at the Soviet era tanks being sported by Russia. Just to note, Soviet era tanks being used by both Russia and Ukraine have absolutely **horrible** reverse speeds, the T-64, T-72, and T-90 only being able to do ~4 or 5km/h in reverse. The T-80 is only slightly better at ~12km/h. The reverse speeds of modern Western tanks are more in the range of 30+km/h. This is particularly important when fighting from a [hull down](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_down) position to quickly reverse to a turret down or hide position. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Hull_down_tank_diagram.png) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Hull_down_tank_diagram.png) ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/18 "2023-06-18T21:37:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The US Army started working on this a long time ago. Yet, they still haven’t given all of their tanks rear-view cameras. You’re right though. After looking into it, I see that a lot more have them than I expected. While the technology has existed forever, it hasn’t been widely adopted until recently. In your link, it mentions that BAE received funding in 2007 to “test” the camera for integration with the TUSK upgrades. Yet, all other mention of the TUSK upgrade, doesn’t mention the camera. I don’t think it was ever included in the actual TUSK fielding. The latest System Enhancement Package (SEP) upgrades do include a rear camera, and after going through some videos and pictures, I think some of the SEPv2 received cameras during initial fielding or during subsequent modernization work orders as well. All the SEPv3s are getting cameras, but SEPv3 only started in 2020. There are still plenty of tanks in inventory with no SEP upgrades at all, and will be for at least the next 2-3 years. The tank in gnoitall’s link above doesn’t have a rear camera, for example. That video is from 9 years ago, but would anyone say that isn’t a modern tank? At any rate, I stand corrected. Some modern tanks have rear view cameras, and the US Army’s tanks that received enhancement package upgrades in the last ten years have rear view cameras as well. @Loach, did you ever have an Abrams with a rear camera? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/19 "2023-06-18T21:49:09Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Just to note, Soviet era tanks being used by both Russia and Ukraine have absolutely **horrible** reverse speeds, the T-64, T-72, and T-90 only being able to do ~4 or 5km/h in reverse. The T-80 is only slightly better at ~12km/h. The reverse speeds of modern Western tanks are more in the range of 30+km/h. This is particularly important when fighting from a [hull down](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_down) position to quickly reverse to a turret down or hide position. IANA tanker, so what follows is speculation, not fact. I’m not sure how much your claimed distinction amounts to a difference. Backing down a slope one tank length the slow tank will do it at walking speed, and take 10 seconds. A tank able to do 30km/h sustained in reverse will not accelerate to that speed in a single tank length. I doubt it’s going to get going that much faster than a tank only able to make 5km/h in reverse. Maybe one of our former tankers can address backing into hull-down or hide? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716/20 "2023-06-18T21:59:28Z")
It’s the official motto of Putins army. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/older-tanks-reversing/985716.md?page=2)