# Oldest Building in Paris? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 2, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216 "2003-02-02T02:19:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/1 "2003-02-02T02:19:05Z")
I just started reading the new book _The Seven Ages of Paris_ and am thoroughly enjoying it (well, OK, I’m, like, ten pages into it). But I was wondering–does anyone know what the oldest existing building is in Paris? I think there are still some old Roman walls around, but any really old structures? Like, pre-1000? ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/2 "2003-02-02T02:50:25Z")
It’s [Duncan’s Tavern](http://www.uky.edu/LCC/HIS/sites/duncan.html). Okay, okay… A quick Google search brought up [Auberge Nicolas Flamel](http://nicolasflamel.parisbistro.net/nicolasflamel-uk.htm), a bistro in what they claim is Paris’ oldest house, dating from 1406. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/3 "2003-02-02T02:51:27Z")
…Give or take a year. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/4 "2003-02-02T03:51:33Z")
. . . But 1407?! _That’s_ the oldest they got? Hell, I’ve got older stuff in my refrigerator . . . ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/5 "2003-02-02T04:05:13Z")
Notre Dame cathedral begun 1163, completed 1350 Abbey St Denis, in the Paris suburb of St Denis 1137 ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/6 "2003-02-02T04:09:30Z")
[http://www.parisur.com/parishistgb.htm](http://www.parisur.com/parishistgb.htm) For the record ,that site mentions, > [@](#): > > Philippe Auguste makes build the new enclosure of Paris and build the Louvre from 1180; in fact it is about a castle. The university of Paris is founded in 1215. The question, of course, is how many of the original buildings remain standing. Most of the _houses_ were likely demolished and rebuilt over the past 1000 years. This site [http://www.paris-tourism.com/monuments/chartres/index.html](http://www.paris-tourism.com/monuments/chartres/index.html) is a list of the monuments in Paris, including the oldest buildings. It is in French, but several of them are mentioned back to 1194, and likely beyond. I didn’t look at all of them, but maybe you can cull something out. > [@](#): > > the current building absorbed those which preceded it: the major part of the foundations of the Romance cathedral of the Fulbert bishop, undertaken in 1020, was re-used to support the current cathedral arched on intersecting ribs after the fire of 1194. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/7 "2003-02-02T04:12:00Z")
Ah, that’s more like it. Gotta get me to Paris . . . Now, where to get the moola to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Peregrine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a6a055/32.png) [@Peregrine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peregrine)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/8 "2003-02-02T05:04:29Z")
Richard Erickson of the [_Paris Kiosque_](http://www.paris.org/Kiosque/may99/414oldie.html) discusses the Flamel house and its rival for the title of oldest house, “… thought to date to around 1300. There are older official buildings - churches, bits of hôtels, palaces - but few of these are relatively original. Almost everything has been through several major renovations; which continue constantly.” The oldest extant church in Paris is the church of [Saint Germain des Prés](http://kunmr2.chem.ukans.edu/~dave/pages/stger2.htm). Although it was established in the sixth century, it was destroyed several times, and most of the present structure only dates back to the twelfth century. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/9 "2003-02-02T06:12:02Z")
Yeah, while a lot of buildings are probably “the oldest building in Paris, dating back to the year 6!” they are all rebuilt. . . I’d guess that the oldest things there are from around 1100. . . does Abbey St Denis retain any of the Carolingian era church, like in the crypt or something? Otherwise the St Denis apse east-end might be the oldest, as it’s the architectural innovation that caused them to rebuild everything else in the new style. ---
**Author:** ![Forbin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Forbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forbin)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/10 "2003-02-02T07:37:44Z")
**capybara** When you use the expression “the new style” are you referring to Gothic? I’m just curious what you meant exactly. ---
**Author:** ![starman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@starman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/starman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/11 "2003-02-02T11:12:37Z")
There is a crypt near the Notre Dame that has been excavated to reveal ruins of settlements dating back to Roman times. Can’t remember what it’s called. -Oli ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/12 "2003-02-02T16:44:45Z")
Forbin-- yeah, I meant Gothic. It was supermodern. ---
**Author:** ![Forbin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Forbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forbin)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/13 "2003-02-02T17:34:41Z")
Thank you for answering capybara. I’m hijacking here so pardon me. My understanding is that the style we now know as Gothic was simply called “The New Style” when it was the mode of the day. It wasn’t until Giorgio Vasari derided it that it got the name Gothic. The intent of that word was to associate it with the “barbaric” Goths. Anyway, I’m reading a few books about gothic architecture right now, but haven’t been able to find reference to the practice of naming it the new style. Any light you can shed on this is appreciated. Sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/14 "2003-02-02T17:57:17Z")
Ah, ok. I’ll look into that later in the day-- gotta run errands. One place to look would be (off the top of my head) E. Panofsky’s “Abbot Suger and St Denis” (I think that’s the title)-- Suger was abbot when the rebuilding took place and writes about it and sort of expounds on aesthetic theory a bit-- he, for one, might cal it a new or modern style. Even a google search on abbot suger might come up with some quotes. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/15 "2003-02-02T20:26:04Z")
Highjack continued: Ok, so apparently Abbot Suger refers to the refurb at St Denis as in a “opus modernum”-- modern work/ modern style, and this term sticks for the following centuries; it is also called opus francigenum (sp?)-- French style. I don’t have the text though so I can’t give you a more precise cite. Back to your regularly scheduled Parisian vacation. . . ---
**Author:** ![Forbin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Forbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forbin)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/16 "2003-02-02T20:40:41Z")
TYVM capybara! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/17 "2003-02-03T00:56:44Z")
There are the remains of a Roman bathhouse incorporated into the Hotel de Cluny, now the fabulous Musee National du Moyen Age (apologies about the lack of accents). The exterior is all much later, but roughly one of the rooms is obviously Roman. From memory, we’re talking about several walls and a couple of arches. Definitely worth seeing. Plus the astronomer Messier did his comet hunting from the top of the tower. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-building-in-paris/152216/18 "2003-02-03T02:49:54Z")
A trivial hijack, but the Flamel house mentioned above belonged to alchemist Nicholas Flamel, Dumbledore’s friend from Harry Potter. (Flamel was a real person who was rumored to have stumbled onto the philosopher’s stone and the secret of immortality.)