# oldest 'classical' music **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 16, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553 "2016-06-16T19:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/21 "2016-06-17T14:57:00Z")
Related question: What’s the oldest melody still popular today? A variant of “Greensleeves” was played in Elizabethan England, but I’m sure some Doper can come up with something much older. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/22 "2016-06-17T15:34:26Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Related question: What’s the oldest melody still popular today? A variant of “Greensleeves” was played in Elizabethan England, but I’m sure some Doper can come up with something much older. Probably the oldest still-recognizable tune is going to be the [Dies Irae plainchant sequence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dies_irae#Music) which goes back to the early 13th-century. You may not know the name but odds are you’ve heard the tune incorporated into some piece of music or another (classical or popular). It’s never really gone out of fashion. Given that written Western music (church music, natch) only goes back in any coherent form to the 12th century (see Léonin and Pérotin and the [Notre Dame school](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre_Dame_school) of polyphony for more details), you’re unlikely to find anything earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/23 "2016-06-17T17:05:06Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Which maybe just goes to show that it matters whether you’re talking about vocal or instrumental music. The former seems to have reached “maturity” earlier. I suppose so, yeah. Although, if we’re talking Renaissance vs. Baroque, I don’t know if “maturity” is the right word, when it comes to vocal music. I mean, [Palestrina](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRfF7W4El60) is plenty “mature”, it’s just that he sounds like… well, Renaissance church music. So, it’s about polyphony vs. monody. When Monteverdi does [this](https://youtu.be/XHRjvK9syQc?t=89) by the 1630s, it just sounds like a different kettle of fish. Actually, there is kinda-sorta a term for the “classical in the colloquial sense” that the OP is getting at: The [common practice period](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_practice_period), spanning about 1600 to around 1900. That covers your Baroque, Classical, and Romantic, more or less. Edit: > [@Trinopus](#): > > I’ll buy that. But would Renaissance music be included? So, by that count, Renaissance is nixed from “colloquial classical”. Which seems about right to me, speaking as an average schmoe. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/24 "2016-06-17T21:10:10Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Related question: What’s the oldest melody still popular today? A variant of “Greensleeves” was played in Elizabethan England, but I’m sure some Doper can come up with something much older. I don’t know if it counts as “popular,” but “Folia” or “Folie d’Espagne” ([wikipedia reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folia)) is pretty darned old, and still has some exposure. It was the title music for Kubrick’s “Barry Lyndon.” (If I’m not mixing up two different ancient themes…) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/25 "2016-06-17T21:17:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I don’t know if it counts as “popular,” but “Folia” or “Folie d’Espagne” ([wikipedia reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folia)) is pretty darned old, and still has some exposure. It was the title music for Kubrick’s “Barry Lyndon.” (If I’m not mixing up two different ancient themes…) Thank you! I \*love \*Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony (the greatest piece of music ever written, IMHO), but I had no idea this theme was incorporated into it! :o ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/26 "2016-06-20T09:06:21Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I don’t know if it counts as “popular,” but “Folia” or “Folie d’Espagne” ([wikipedia reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folia)) is pretty darned old, and still has some exposure. It was the title music for Kubrick’s “Barry Lyndon.” (If I’m not mixing up two different ancient themes…) You’re not, and I almost posted that one as well. It’s probably dates to about the same time as Greensleeves or possibly a little later, and has certainly gotten heavy use over the years. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/27 "2016-06-20T14:14:40Z")
To me classical music is music made with violins (and violas and cellos). Music before violins were invented is something else. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/28 "2016-06-20T15:49:44Z")
Do you mean that music composed since violins were invented fits the “classical” definition, or only music that actually involves violins? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/29 "2016-06-20T17:35:56Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > To me classical music is music made with violins (and violas and cellos). Music before violins were invented is something else. And what do you call music composed after violins were invented, that doesn’t involve string instruments? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/30 "2016-06-20T19:58:22Z")
SDMB pedanticism at its very finest! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/31 "2016-06-20T20:41:56Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > SDMB pedanticism at its very finest! Actually, the word is “pedantry”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/32 "2016-06-21T14:27:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Actually, the word is “pedantry”. 😉 … Not to be pedantic. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/33 "2016-06-21T14:44:07Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Do you mean that music composed since violins were invented fits the “classical” definition, or only music that actually involves violins? The latter. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/34 "2016-06-21T14:50:24Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And what do you call music composed after violins were invented, that doesn’t involve string instruments? I don’t have a term for that. I was just pointing out that to me classical is synonymous with violins. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/35 "2016-06-21T15:01:03Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > I don’t have a term for that. I was just pointing out that to me classical is synonymous with violins. Understandable, but of course it doesn’t work as a general definition, because there’s plenty of classical music (including but not limited to big-C Classical music) that doesn’t involve violins (for example, all those piano sonatas and other solo keyboard works), as well as plenty of non-classical music that does (like bluegrass fiddle tunes and pop songs with schmaltzy string accompaniments). ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/36 "2016-06-22T14:53:42Z")
Naxos, a classical music label, put out a box set of a sampling of all eras of classical music. The earliest composer they featured was Hildegarde of Bingen, from the 12th Century. That beats “Greensleeves” by about 400 years. ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553/37 "2016-06-22T15:53:14Z")
[quote=“Baker, post:9, topic:757553”] I love Charpentier. The prelude to his “Te Deum” has been played as a processional at weddings. [/QUOTE] It was at mine. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-classical-music/757553.md?page=1)