# Oldest Koran found in Birmingham, UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871 "2015-07-22T12:34:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/21 "2015-07-23T17:47:31Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > Now all we need is a NT manuscript dated to the early 1st century. Its already available for free on [Kindle Fire](http://www.classicly.com/download-the-quran-koran-1st-translation-kindle). (…saaaay… that sounds wrong…) ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/22 "2015-07-23T18:42:40Z")
The Koran was written towards the end of the 8th century (the late 700s). ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/23 "2015-07-23T19:13:42Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > The Koran was written towards the end of the 8th century (the late 700s). Got a cite for that? Via a cursory search of [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran): “Muslims agree that the Quran we see today was compiled by Uthman the third caliph (653-656).” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/24 "2015-07-23T19:52:36Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I do not believe there is much scholarship to support this, nor does this fragment seem to be support this. Well, SeniorCitizen007 has come across snippets of info on early Islam so he’s got some scholarship to back up his conjecture. I guess. ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/25 "2015-07-23T20:28:34Z")
There Is not and never has been an Arabic Koran universally recognised by all Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/26 "2015-07-23T20:56:18Z")
Got a cite for that? Or your other claim(s)? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/27 "2015-07-24T21:11:00Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > There Is not and never has been an Arabic Koran universally recognised by all Muslims. That is entirely false. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/28 "2015-07-24T21:16:15Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s important to nate that all they can know is when the sheep lived; the writing could be somewhat later. Have to be a little later-sheep are not good writing surfaces. The dead sheep are, but the live ones, yes they are not good writing surfaces… they tend to move too much and complain. > [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > What I find even more fascinating is the fact that these fragments of the oldest Koran possibly pre-date the actual writing of the Koran by almost 50 years. No the sheepskin may be of this date or younger somewhat, the writing is not dated. In fact among the serious Muslim scholars there is doubt that the writing is really that old because it has the features in script that arose only later in the common practice, even a century later. It seems more likely it is an old parchement that was reused (this was very common). Still very old by its style, but not as old as the skin itself can imply. It may be among the earliest of the Quran texts, but probably not as old as the university is promoting. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/29 "2015-07-25T00:28:49Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > That is entirely false. The other poster may be referring to [variant readings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#Variant_readings) of the text before vocalization (vowel) marks were added. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/30 "2015-07-25T07:50:49Z")
I doubt that. His subtext is clear enough. ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/31 "2015-07-25T08:11:19Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > That is entirely false. There are over 30 different Korans available in the Islamic world today. The one popular in Morroco is different from the one popular in Egypt. It’s a case of “The Koran according to so and so or so and so”. So far the Muslim world has not decided on what is the authorised version (which would, of course, be “according to Allah” 'cos it’s his book). ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/32 "2015-07-25T21:41:21Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > There are over 30 different Korans available in the Islamic world today. How interesting. I can even know which websites you have gotten this from. > [@](#): > > The one popular in Morroco is different from the one popular in Egypt. Really, you know this from what? Perhaps I must go to my local shop to make the count myself. Of course this is nonsense, I can say this as a Maghrebine. > [@](#): > > So far the Muslim world has not decided on what is the authorised version (which would, of course, be “according to Allah” 'cos it’s his book). Your parroting of false information is unfortunate. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/33 "2015-07-25T21:54:45Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I doubt that. His subtext is clear enough. and I was right it is clear enough where this comes from ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/34 "2015-07-25T23:11:53Z")
could you share that with us? I’m curious. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/35 "2015-07-25T23:12:56Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The dead sheep are, but the live ones, yes they are not good writing surfaces… they tend to move too much and complain. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/36 "2015-07-26T14:56:11Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > How interesting. I can even know which websites you have gotten this from. > > Really, you know this from what? > > Perhaps I must go to my local shop to make the count myself. > > Of course this is nonsense, I can say this as a Maghrebine. > > Your parroting of false information is unfortunate. What is important, of course, is whether the variant readings are significant enough to cause concern. If a caliphate were ever to come about would this issue be openly debated? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/37 "2015-07-26T15:58:26Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > What is important, of course, is whether the variant readings are significant enough to cause concern. If a caliphate were ever to come about would this issue be openly debated? What is more important is not to get your information from the various evangelical anti-islam websites that promote misinformation. The reading variations have not and never have been things of contention, not even between the shiite and the sunni. This is an invented “issue” by people who do not understand either the arabic or the quran. Disputes on the hadith and the tafsir, now that is an issue. The Qirat, no, and not in all 14 hundred years. it is not either a secret or is it any issue. There is no ‘issue [to] be openly debated’ in a Khalifa or not, it is only something anti-muslim evangelicals strangely go on and on about. now stop please ignorantly promoting the falsehoods and the misinformation, this website is about removing ignorance, not expanding it. ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/38 "2015-07-27T16:14:26Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > What is more important is not to get your information from the various evangelical anti-islam websites that promote misinformation. > > The reading variations have not and never have been things of contention, not even between the shiite and the sunni. This is an invented “issue” by people who do not understand either the arabic or the quran. > > Disputes on the hadith and the tafsir, now that is an issue. The Qirat, no, and not in all 14 hundred years. it is not either a secret or is it any issue. > > There is no ‘issue [to] be openly debated’ in a Khalifa or not, it is only something anti-muslim evangelicals strangely go on and on about. > > now stop please ignorantly promoting the falsehoods and the misinformation, this website is about removing ignorance, not expanding it. As an atheist the claim that the Koran came into existence in the way the Islamic world declares is for me a falsehood and misinformation. The Bible details how the OT originated … namely the Pentateuch was found buried in the temple having been put there by Moses 500 years earlier. I regard the claimed origins of the Koran as having been orchestrated according to a similar scenario. By this I mean … a deliberate plan to disseminate a falsehood. I’ve read the Koran (in English translation of course). It is obviously the product of the mind of a person or persons seeking to convince the readers that God is its source. It’s a holy fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/39 "2015-07-27T17:22:00Z")
As of [2011](http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2011/02/24/0302000000AEN20110224008100315.HTML) the oldest Korean was 114-year-old Kim Eom-gok, found in the city of Guri, some 15 kilometers east of Seoul. Not sure what the answer is now. ETA: Oh, wait; never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/40 "2015-07-27T18:37:03Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > As an atheist the claim that the Koran came into existence in the way the Islamic world declares is for me a falsehood and misinformation. The Bible details how the OT originated … namely the Pentateuch was found buried in the temple having been put there by Moses 500 years earlier. I regard the claimed origins of the Koran as having been orchestrated according to a similar scenario. By this I mean … a deliberate plan to disseminate a falsehood. > > I’ve read the Koran (in English translation of course). It is obviously the product of the mind of a person or persons seeking to convince the readers that God is its source. It’s a holy fraud. And none of that is relevant at all to the point that **Ramira** made. She said nothing at all about the validity of the book. By the way, where in the Bible is the story you posted regarding the Pentateuch originated? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871.md?page=3)