# Oldest Koran found in Birmingham, UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871 "2015-07-22T12:34:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/41 "2015-07-27T19:18:33Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > And none of that is relevant at all to the point that **Ramira** made. She said nothing at all about the validity of the book. … If they turn away Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the hereafter was originally: … If they turn away Allah will punish them in this world. I’ve made a close study of interpolations in the Greek NT texts. The same happened with the Koranic texts. I am of the opinion that the Koran, more or less as it exist’s today, came into existence in the late 700s … and that what we have today was the work of a single individual ---
**Author:** ![dudonarrival](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@dudonarrival](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dudonarrival)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/42 "2015-07-27T22:16:41Z")
Gosh how wonderful that is for all the re-colonising socially enhancing New English here in Brum. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/43 "2015-07-27T23:50:50Z")
Citations, please. Cause it seems like your making shit up. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/44 "2015-07-28T01:27:40Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > … If they turn away Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the hereafter > > was originally: > > … If they turn away Allah will punish them in this world. > > I’ve made a close study of interpolations in the Greek NT texts. The same happened with the Koranic texts. > > I am of the opinion that the Koran, more or less as it exist’s today, came into existence in the late 700s … and that what we have today was the work of a single individual I see no reason for you to have quoted me to make this completely off-topic post. Perhaps you meant to post it in another thread, say in GD, but without quoting me? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/45 "2015-07-28T12:22:47Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > The Bible details how the OT originated … namely the Pentateuch was found buried in the temple having been put there by Moses 500 years earlier. Considering that the Bible says that Moses never made it to Israel, and that it says the Temple was built by Solomon, who is traditionally believed to have lived about four centuries after Moses, that’s quite a trick. Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/46 "2015-07-28T12:42:35Z")
Hows your Hejazi Arabic matey? ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/47 "2015-07-28T17:05:55Z")
I’m backing out of this: One final thought though: 'The Muslim community were not wealthy enough to stockpile animal skins for decades …" Imetresting, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/48 "2015-07-28T18:01:22Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > I’m backing out of this: > > One final thought though: > > 'The Muslim community were not wealthy enough to stockpile animal skins for decades …" > > Imetresting, eh? Yep…in a “WTF has that got to do with anything???” sort of way. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/49 "2015-07-28T18:04:58Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > Extract from the university page: > > ‘The Muslim community was not wealthy enough to stockpile animal skins for decades. …’ > > Other reports of this “discovery” talk about how the non-Muslims as well as the Muslims should “celebrate”. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yep…in a “WTF has that got to do with anything???” sort of way. Probably insinuates that the parchment may not be genuine if the inhabitants of that region at that time could not afford the skins from which to make it. But I didn’t write that quote so I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/50 "2015-07-29T11:18:44Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > I’m backing out of this: So, to summarise, you’re leaving the thread you started: 1. Without responding to the rebuttal offered by several posters to your initial comments about the 95% spread; 2. Without responding to the contradiction by other posters of your factual assertion that there are variant versions of the Koran; 3. Without responding to the critique by other posters that there is no evidence to support your convoluted theory that Mohammed plagerised from an unknown Nestorian Christian document that his uncle had; 4. Without providing any authority in support of the assertion that the Koran was actually written in the late 700’s, instead of the broadly accepted date of the mid 600’s, except for your own personal theory; 5. Without providing any support for your assertion that Moses hid the Pentateuch in a temple that didn’t exist when he died, in a location which the Bible expressly states he never visited before his death. So all we’re left with are your personal meanderings, suspicions and feelings, unsupported by any shred of factual evidence, other than your own personal prejudices. Have I got that right? ---
**Author:** ![scareyfaerie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scareyfaerie/32/3135_2.png) [@scareyfaerie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scareyfaerie)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/51 "2015-07-29T15:05:14Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > So all we’re left with are your personal meanderings, suspicions and feelings, unsupported by any shred of factual evidence, other than your own personal prejudices. Quite appropriate for MPSIMS, right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/52 "2015-07-29T18:16:39Z")
I actually am of the opinion that the earliest Koranic writings were probably more benevolent and humane than what exists today. When the Arabians first moved out of their home territory they were apparently welcomed by the locals who had endured chaotic anarchy for some time because of the decades long warfare between the Persians and the Byzantines. ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/53 "2015-07-29T18:21:53Z")
Does anyone have any info about Abbas, Muhammed’s uncle, the head of his clan? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/54 "2015-07-29T18:22:32Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > I actually am of the opinion that the earliest Koranic writings were probably more benevolent and humane than what exists today. And what bits of early Koranic writings do you base this opinion on? ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/55 "2015-07-29T18:54:38Z")
4 > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And what bits of early Koranic writings do you base this opinion on? The Sana’a Manuscript, which first got me thinking when I read an article about it back in the 90s The early text has been dated to 671 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/56 "2015-07-29T19:16:12Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > 4 > > The Sana’a Manuscript, which first got me thinking when I read an article about it back in the 90s > > The early text has been dated to 671 I’m confused-what part of the Sana’a Manuscript has led you to believe that the Koran used to be more benevolent and humane? ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/57 "2015-07-29T19:57:36Z")
The Bible is riddled with interpolations. The Koran much less so. Those who had a hand in the subtle changes in the Koran’s text went about it a much more subtle way. There are also indications that in some cases interpolations were made by a person who didn’t fully grasp the meaning of what he was tampering with. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/58 "2015-07-29T20:26:25Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > There are also indications that in some cases interpolations were made by a person who didn’t fully grasp the meaning of what he was tampering with. Care to post some of the data that you are using? You’ve been notably light on posting any sources. ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/59 "2015-07-30T07:06:48Z")
One thing people should know about me is that I’ve been associating with atheist Muslims for over 40 years - people from Egypt, Tunisia, Morroco, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Turkey, Indonesia, India, Malaysia, etc. Atheist Muslims are often very clear thinkers, especially the women. ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871/60 "2015-07-30T07:21:16Z")
Back in the 60s and 70s educated young Muslims were often openly irreligious. Mini skirts were popular in Cairo & Kabul, sort of thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-koran-found-in-birmingham-uk/725871.md?page=4)