# oldest of old money families?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [April 7, 2010, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255 "2010-04-07T08:48:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/1 "2010-04-07T08:48:57Z")
Whats the oldest family than has been continuously wealthy in unbroken chain for longest period? Wikipedia mentions Rothschild family from 1700’s, which seems pretty recent really.
> **[Old money](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_money)**
>
> Old money is "the inherited wealth of established upper-class families (i.e. gentry, patriciate)" or "a person, family, or lineage possessing inherited wealth". The term typically describes a social class of the rich who have been able to maintain their wealth over multiple generations, often referring to perceived members of the de facto aristocracy in societies that historically lack an officially established aristocratic class (such as the United States).
> The term is often used in contrast ...
Lets go with the definition of wealthy as “no member of the direct family has to work for a living (but they may chose to)”.
I’m going to suggest the “House of Wettin” which became the Saxe Coburg And Gotha family, which then became the Windsors… eg the British Royal Family. I have no idea if they have been continuously wealthy but that would put it back to around 1000AD if they were.
> **[House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha)**
>
> The House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (/ˌsæks ˈkoʊbərɡ ... ˈɡɒθə, - ˈɡɒtə/ SAKS KOH-bərg ... GOT(H)-ə; German: Haus Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha) is a European royal house. It takes its name from its oldest domain, the Ernestine duchy of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and its members later sat on the thrones of Belgium, Bulgaria, Portugal, and the United Kingdom and its dominions.
> Founded in 1826 by Ernest Anton, the sixth duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, it is a cadet branch of the Saxon House of Wettin. One a...
> **[House of Wettin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wettin)**
>
> The House of Wettin (German: Haus Wettin) was a dynasty of German kings, prince-electors, dukes, and counts that once ruled territories in the present-day German states of Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia. The dynasty is one of the oldest in Europe, and its origins can be traced back to the town of Wettin, Saxony-Anhalt. The Wettins gradually rose to power within the Holy Roman Empire. Members of the family became the rulers of several medieval states, starting with the Saxon Eastern March in ...
perhaps some of the Arab royalty have a longer claim than that? Any other contenders?
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### Author:  [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/2 "2010-04-07T12:17:30Z")
How exactly do you define ‘the direct family’ in cases like this? If you take a single patriarch or matriarch, I think it’s very unlikely that all of their descendents in 300 years would be ‘don’t have to work, can live off family money’ wealthy, especially since some of them would reasonably have to be bringing new money into the family coffers.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/3 "2010-04-07T13:33:04Z")
> [@coremelt](#):
>
> perhaps some of the Arab royalty have a longer claim than that? Any other contenders?
Arab royalty? Based on what I saw in the film Lawrence of Arabia, they’ve only been wealthy since the discovery of oil there. Prior to that, they seemed to have been nomadic tribesmen.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/4 "2010-04-07T13:36:46Z")
IIRC, the House of Wettin wasn’t all that rich or powerful if you keep going back a ways. My guess would be the Fuggers or the Medici, but I don’t think there are any left.
As for Arab “royalty”…I don’t think so. As noted, their wealth came from oil and their royal status came from being slightly friendlier to the Brits.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/5 "2010-04-07T15:01:39Z")
The oldest hereditary monarchy is that of [Japan,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_House_of_Japan) which traditionally originated in 660 BC. The first monarch with verifiable dates was around AD 500. However, I don’t think that ancient monarchs can be considered as “not having to work,” since I think directly managing a medieval realm was a pretty hard job.
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### Author:  [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/6 "2010-04-07T16:07:19Z")
it’s definitely a royal house. the Medicis only date back to the renaissance.
merovingians?
hapsbergs?
windsor?
the japanese royal family is a good suggestion. turbulent dynastic shifts have cut short Chinese/Indian lines.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/7 "2010-04-07T17:02:19Z")
> [@chrisk](#):
>
> How exactly do you define ‘the direct family’ in cases like this? If you take a single patriarch or matriarch, I think it’s very unlikely that all of their descendents in 300 years would be ‘don’t have to work, can live off family money’ wealthy, especially since some of them would reasonably have to be bringing new money into the family coffers.
This is the problem. Each generation the family wealth is going to get more and more diluted and those who inherit wealth don’t generally do a good job of stewarding it. There’s even an expression, “from shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations” because a family fortune rarely survives three (or even two) generations.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/8 "2010-04-07T17:07:18Z")
“Rarely” admits exceptions: there’s families that have been doing quite well, like the aforementioned Rotschilds or the House of Alba. That doesn’t mean every person who has a drop of Rotschild or Alba blood spends the day getting manicures; I’m reasonably sure not even the Duchess does (yeah, she has managers, but those do need to be managed):
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### Author:  [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/9 "2010-04-07T17:15:26Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> This is the problem. Each generation the family wealth is going to get more and more diluted and those who inherit wealth don’t generally do a good job of stewarding it. There’s even an expression, “from shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations” because a family fortune rarely survives three (or even two) generations.
I often ponder such things, wondering if there really is a way that families can build core trusts that can be passed along but with sufficent legal isolation that nobody is allowed to pull out like more than half of the money than the trust can supply while still leaving the rest for compound interest. Can such a trust be built so a given benificiary of the trust cannot “sell off” their portion to places like jg wentworth.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/10 "2010-04-07T17:42:48Z")
Kennedy family has already blown most of their fortune. I read an news article a few years ago that said they were restricting who could inherit. Some of the more distant relations are out of luck.
Rockefeller family should be ok. It hasn’t been long since David Rockefeller had Chase Bank.
> [@](#):
>
> His net wealth is estimated at 2.2 billion dollars, ranking him among the 300 richest people in the world.
> **[David Rockefeller](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rockefeller)**
>
> David Rockefeller (June 12, 1915 – March 20, 2017) was an American economist and investment banker who served as chairman and chief executive of Chase Manhattan Corporation. He was the oldest living member of the Rockefeller family from 2004 until his death in 2017. Rockefeller was the fifth son and youngest child of John D. Rockefeller Jr. and Abby Aldrich Rockefeller, and a grandson of John D. Rockefeller and Laura Spelman Rockefeller.
> He was noted for his wide-ranging political connections ...
Johnson family of Johnson & Johnson, were in the news when one of the female heirs (Casey) had a fling with Paris Hilton. She died young. That left one less bimbo to waste the family fortune. 😉
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/11 "2010-04-07T17:48:52Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Johnson family of Johnson & Johnson, were in the news when one of the female heirs (Casey) had a fling with Paris Hilton.
Tila Tequila, not Paris Hilton.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/12 "2010-04-07T18:04:00Z")
Thanks for the correction Marley. 😉
Folger is another rich family.
I haven’t heard too much about them. Heiress Abigail was killed during the Manson murders. I think the family is still very prominent and rich.
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/13 "2010-04-07T19:20:41Z")
> [@drachillix](#):
>
> I often ponder such things, wondering if there really is a way that families can build core trusts that can be passed along but with sufficent legal isolation that nobody is allowed to pull out like more than half of the money than the trust can supply while still leaving the rest for compound interest. Can such a trust be built so a given benificiary of the trust cannot “sell off” their portion to places like jg wentworth.
One would have to be creative with trusts in order to avoid the estate tax taking half of that fortune at every generation. IANA estate lawyer, but I think one has to give up a certain amount of control of one’s money to the trust at the outset, and the trust itself can contain limitations on how the money is paid out. Such trusts can only last a few generations, though; they cannot be perpetual.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/14 "2010-04-07T20:55:13Z")
I’m going to guess that the royal families of some Indian princely states are at least as old as most European royal families, although that category does fall afoul of the “not having to work” criterion, as **Colibri** noted. (Could we technically get around it by saying that any **given** member of a royal family probably could abdicate if they wanted to, and thereby avoid working? **Somebody** ’s gotta be king or queen, but if the immediate heir decided they couldn’t be arsed to take on the job, I’m sure there’s somebody in line for the throne who would be only too delighted.)
Plenty of the [Rajasthan maharaja](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Maharajas_of_Rajasthan) dynasties go back to at least the fifteenth or sixteenth centuries, and plenty of them, like (by courtesy) HH Maharaja Sawai Bhawani Singh of Jaipur, are still getting along just fine in terms of family prosperity and prestige.
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### Author:  [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/15 "2010-04-07T21:12:15Z")
By the way, most of the Japanese emperors have had very little to do with the running of their empires. That is what you have Shoguns, and feudal lords for. Very wealthy prisoners, in many cases. But, they are rich.
Tris
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### Author:  [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-of-old-money-families/535255/16 "2010-04-07T22:02:36Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#):
>
> One would have to be creative with trusts in order to avoid the estate tax taking half of that fortune at every generation. IANA estate lawyer, but I think one has to give up a certain amount of control of one’s money to the trust at the outset, and the trust itself can contain limitations on how the money is paid out. Such trusts can only last a few generations, though; they cannot be perpetual.
The Ford family, for example, runs the Ford Foundation - a charity. The charity, IIRC, holds a huge fund to distribute, and employs some Ford family members as board members to oversee it, thus ensuring they have a cushy job for life.
Not sure how they ensure that it’s always Ford family members included, but obviously they have a way.
I suspect that worries about inheritance taxes are a relatively recent invention, just like income taxes.