# Oldest Oral Legend **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 8, 2002, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259 "2002-12-08T04:41:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/21 "2002-12-08T07:38:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Opus1 \* > \*\*I’ve heard that certain Australian aborigines have a legend about an island that sunk into the ocean 10,000 years ago, but have no reputible verification of that. \*\* Which would kind of match the timeline for Plato’s tale about Atlantis, wouldn’t it? (Not that there’s any connection, of course, but it’s an interesting coincidence if correct.) ---
**Author:** ![Wikkit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c0e974/32.png) [@Wikkit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wikkit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/22 "2002-12-08T08:14:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NDP \* > **Actually, you may be thinking of the formation of the Black Sea and its relation to the great Deluge legends.** No, I’m quite sure that I was thinking of the glacial lake Missoula and the half a billion cubic miles of water that were released. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/23 "2002-12-08T08:19:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob55 \* > \*\*I always heard it was Beowulf \*\* The Beowulf legend orginated in the sixth century (AD), it is the oldest piece of English literature though. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/24 "2002-12-08T08:21:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wikkit \* > \*\*No, I’m quite sure that I was thinking of the glacial lake Missoula and the half a billion cubic miles of water that were released. \*\* I always thought the generally accepted view was that the deluge occured in the Euphrates basin. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/25 "2002-12-08T08:26:50Z")
The ‘Dreamtime’ legends of the Australian aborigines are _said_ to go back over 20,000 years…the problem is that being _oral_ legends, it is hard to prove (or disprove) such claims. However, given that all cultures have come up with some sort of creation mythology, there is no obvious reason to doubt the dating of these. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/26 "2002-12-08T08:58:55Z")
Exactly. Australian aborigines have been in Australia since about 40,000 years ago, most likely arriving at the north coast from Southeast Asia. 20,000 years? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/27 "2002-12-08T09:04:53Z")
Yes but its difficult to say how long an oral legend will persist before it is either forgotten or becomes so changed that it bears no resemblance to the original. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/28 "2002-12-08T09:26:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kambuckta \* > \*\*The ‘Dreamtime’ legends of the Australian aborigines are _said_ to go back over 20,000 years…the problem is that being _oral_ legends, it is hard to prove (or disprove) such claims. However, given that all cultures have come up with some sort of creation mythology, there is no obvious reason to doubt the dating of these. \*\* Have these been collected and published anywhere? I’d like to read them. ---
**Author:** ![trader\_of\_shots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@trader\_of\_shots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trader_of_shots)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/29 "2002-12-08T10:28:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*Have these been collected and published anywhere? I’d like to read them. \*\* Hehe … yeah. They are pretty funny to read. My favorite is Tadalick (sp) the frog the held all the water. [http://www.story.freeserve.co.uk/stories/tidalick.htm](http://www.story.freeserve.co.uk/stories/tidalick.htm) Also the legend of the Rainbow Python. The majority of Aboriginal mythology … opps mythology is history recorded by preists yeah ?.. Better make that Aboriginal History occurs during " the dream time" - Animals had voices and the land was alive. Most Aboriginal stories are about how certain animals came to be ( they are really people you see) also there are stories of “the good and the bad” of the dream time , specters and angels if you will. The aboriginal stories - on the most part - are childish and silly but are always cute and funny. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/30 "2002-12-08T13:59:31Z")
Legends change and evolve. In a legend which at first glance appears to refer to a relatively recent period, due to the places involved in it or the items and way of life mentionned, a folklorist can find themes, elements of structure, derived characters which allow him to trace its origins back to a much earlier period. I’m thinking here for instance to french folk tales which appear to refer to say a XVIII° or XIX° century setting while actually various more or less hidden elements show they’re are related to celtic myths. But in order to know where and when a particular legend originated, we would have to be at least somewhat familiar to the original culture. For instance, these celtic legents could themselves have been derived from even older (say neolithic) tales. But not knowing anything about the cultures present before the celts, it’s impossible to tell. So, I doubt anybody could pinpoint exactly when a particular legend appeared, except in some very peculiar instances (like in the case of your african myths about a supernova). And even in these instances, the more time pass, the more the tale will change, and past some point, it will be essentially impossible to establish the link between the tale and the original event (that’s assuming that there’s actually an “event” at the root of the tale. I would guess that the majority of tales originated in myths, not in actual events). Take the well-known urban legend about the mysterious hitchicker who warn a driver about a dangerous curb on the road before dissapearing and then is found out to have been dead for many years. Despite its content, the tale is way older than cars. Essentially the same story can be found in much earlier periods. Some guy coming back from the market on his cart see a woman clad in white on the side of the road who ask him to bring her home. She stays silent, except for one warning or another (on whatever issue, often not about a danger related to the road) she gives to the cart driver. Then he drops her in front of some house and on the following day, when he comes back to enquire about her, he’s told she has been dead for several years, or find only ruins where he had seen a house. So, this urban legend is merely a very old tale modernized and set up in our current world. How old it is? For all we know it could be 50 000 years old…There’s no way to tell. At some point, legends can’t be traced back anymore… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/31 "2002-12-08T14:35:27Z")
Just to add something about the the UL I was refering to. Take an old version of it and a modern one : -The cart driver is told by the mysterious woman to take care of his fireplace when he’ll come back home. So, despite being tired, the guy check it before going to bed, notice the fire had not be properly covered and could have caused a fire, then go to bed. On the following day, he comes back to the woman’s house only to discover only burned down ruins. Asking the neighbors, he’s told that the woman he met died in an accidental fire in her house years ago. Someone show him a brooch which has been found in the charred ruins and he recognize the brooch the mysterious woman was wearing. -The driver is told by the mysterious hitchiker to pay attention to a dangerous curb on the road. He slows down. Then, either the hichicker has vanished from her seat while the driver was paying attention to the road, either she’s still there and the driver drops her by her house. When he comes back to the house, or when he report the weird event to the police, he’s shown a picture of the person, recognize her and he’s told this woman died in a car accident at this dangerous curb she warned him about. So, the legend has evolved a lot, but the core elements are still the same : -Someone is on is way back home -He displays kindness to a stranger (offers her a ride) -The stranger warn him about an impeding danger -The stranger turns out to be the ghost (and there’s often a proof : the brooch, the picture) of a person who died in the exact circumstances the kind man was warned about. That’s the core of the legend. All the rest is dressing to adapt the legend to the way of life the listener is accustomed too. And more generally, this legend is only a particular example of a whole family of tales where people who died a violent death come back to warn the livings and avoid them the same fate. There’s no way to tell how old this theme is. Possibly as old as humanity itself. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/32 "2002-12-08T18:09:14Z")
The oldest legend is that there are gods that affect mankind and that there is some sort of an afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/33 "2002-12-08T19:37:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wikkit \* > \*\*Some people argue that the tale of Noah’s Ark is based on dam breaks from the glacial lake Missoula. That happened 12000 years ago, but is obviouly impossible to prove. And since it’s a religion thing, seperating the wheat from the crap is a bit difficult. \*\* Do you have a link? Or a book? I’d love to listen to someone trace a middle Eastern myth back to a flooded Montana, Washinton, and Idaho. ---
**Author:** ![SandyHook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dec6dc/32.png) [@SandyHook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandyHook)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/34 "2002-12-08T22:31:25Z")
I’m thinking, from some dimly remembered PBS programs, that there were two, “Great Floods,” in North America in the last 10-15,000 years or so. The larger of the two, which was the first one, happened when the ice cap melted. A large pool of fresh water captured in Canada was suddenly released into the Atlantic. There was enough fresh water in it, according to the show, to affect the salinity of the ocean and upset how the major currents behaved. The second in the Pacific Northwest was a good bit smaller, but still rather impressive. Wikkit’s claim that a half billion cubic miles of water was released is probably a tad high. That would take a body of water 7,500 miles in diameter and 3 miles deep. For what it’s worth, I’m thinking the first legands had to be god/creation myths formulated so far back as to be impossible to trace. ---
**Author:** ![Wikkit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c0e974/32.png) [@Wikkit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wikkit)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/35 "2002-12-09T03:54:52Z")
Yeah, looks like half a billion was a bit off, considering that there doesn’t appear to be that much water on earth. I just took the first number I found. Looking again, 500 cubic miles sounds better. I also can’t find any arguments that it was the basis of the biblical flood, just claims that either the Missoula flood proves that scientists could still be missing the evidence for the biblical flood, or that something as huge as the Missoula was identified and proven shows that the biblical flood would be as well. Standard stuff. I’ll just shut up and go read the aboriginal Australian stories now. ---
**Author:** ![DRomm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@DRomm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRomm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/36 "2002-12-09T15:54:48Z")
Thor Heyerdahl’s Early Man and the Ocean deals with the sea routes taken to and from the Americas, but overall is a good examination of how oral history gets passed around. [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385127103/qid%3D1039448770/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr\_11\_1/002-0922864-4620807](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385127103/qid%3D1039448770/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-0922864-4620807) The flood legend may be old, but it’s only the third creation story mentioned in the Bible; the first two chapters of Genesis are the first and second (see [http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Genesis.htm](http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Genesis.htm) , near the middle). The Adam and Even story (esp. Eve) seem to be remnants of a much older Akkadian pun (see [http://www.womenpriests.org/body/baring3.htm](http://www.womenpriests.org/body/baring3.htm) , under figure 5): “The Sumerian word for ‘life’ was ti, which also meant ‘rib’. Ninhursag, the Sumerian mother goddess, once healed the rib of Enki, god of the sweet waters, by creating Nin-ti, a goddess of childbirth, who made the bones of infants in the womb from the ribs of their mothers.(4) The Sumerian name Nin-ti could mean either ‘the lady who gives life’ (the traditional title for a goddess) or ‘the lady of the rib’. The Yahwist writer of Genesis 2 and 3 was undoubtedly aware of this double meaning, since in selecting the rib version of it he still accords to it the magic of birth.”) ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/37 "2002-12-09T15:59:24Z")
Seems to me that there couldn’t possibly be a verifiable answer to the OP. If a story is so old as to be prehistoric, _and_ is oral… Well, you see my point. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/38 "2002-12-10T00:00:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kambuckta \* > \*\*The ‘Dreamtime’ legends of the Australian aborigines are _said_ to go back over 20,000 years…the problem is that being _oral_ legends, it is hard to prove (or disprove) such claims. However, given that all cultures have come up with some sort of creation mythology, there is no obvious reason to doubt the dating of these. \*\* I suppose the trick would be to find an authentic legend that described a dateable event, such as a volcano first appearing, or an animal that is now extinct. But oral legends being what they are, if such a one were to be discovered now, one would have to doubt its authenticity. As for North American aborigines, I could never understand why, if Old World creation legends go back at least 5000 years, they seem to have no legends concerning the huge beasts such as woolly mammoths and rhinoceroses that must have been here when they arrived. IIRC it’s fairly well established that they did hunt them, and one would think that successfully bringing down one of these giants would have been something long remembered in the culture. Of course I wouldn’t have expected them to call them mammoths and rhinos, but merely reference “monsters”, or some such, that formerly existed and were successfully hunted by their mighty forefathers. ---
**Author:** ![Motog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Motog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/39 "2002-12-10T03:06:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*Have these been collected and published anywhere? I’d like to read them. \*\* There’s a lot of hardcopy compilations available but I suspect you won’t find them in your local bookstore except in Australia. Do a Google search on “Dreamtime stories”, “Dreamtime legends”, “Dreaming Aboriginals”, “Aboriginal legends”, “Koori legends”, or any combination of these words and you should come up with enough to keep you reading for a while. I had a look at Amazon and Borders but couldn’t see any books I’d recommend A.W Reed has written a lot of books on aboriginal fables and legends, particularly Dreamtime legends. Try checking one of the Australian booksellers websites such as: www.angusrobertson.com.au www.dymocks.com.au and either search for A.W Reed or do a general search on any of the terms above. I’m sure they ship books overseas (for a price). However, keep in mind that there were thousands of aboriginal languages/dialects, and tribes and language groups were often very isolated. As a result there are very few if any stories that would have been common throughout Australia. There are also many different stories to explain the same thing - I’ve read dozens of different stories on the creation of man. My point being: don’t expect to find a definitive collection of aboriginal Dreamtime stories, there isn’t one. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259/40 "2002-12-10T03:21:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by trader\_of\_shots \* > \*\*Hehe … yeah. They are pretty funny to read. > > My favorite is Tadalick (sp) the frog the held all the water. > > Also the legend of the Rainbow Python. > \*\* For some really interesting reading, Google a search with “rainbow python” and “Bruce Means”. He’s an FSU herpetologist who documented some really intriguing findings about that possibly not so legendary serpent. (He believes the “rainbow” to be the prismatic refraction of the light through water wherever the snake lived.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-oral-legend/141259.md?page=3)