# Oldest phrases/expressions used in today's English **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 7, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178 "2019-04-07T17:29:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/21 "2019-04-08T02:27:05Z")
If you’re looking for old phrases rather than single words which are obviously linked to very old forms, the following expressions all occur in [_Beowulf_](http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html) from about the 8th century: long while (_lange hwíle_) sweet song (_swutol sang_) dark nights (_deorcum nihtum_) under [someone’s] roof (_under […] hróf_) on deep water (_on déop wæter_) beer-drunk (_béore druncen_) far and near (_feorran ond néän_) mankind (_manna cynne_) ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/22 "2019-04-08T02:48:11Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I remember the Guinness Book of Records 1980 edition had an entry for oldest words in the English language. There were four words listed of which I am pretty sure two were “apple” and “gold”. Is there any basis for this claim? Are these words thought to be older than other PIE roots? _Apple_, at least, might be even older than PIE. It doesn’t really fit well with the language (the initial _a_-colored sound and the _b_ sound in the original word (_abel_ or _h2ebol_) were both pretty rare), so it could have been an import from some Asian tongue. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/23 "2019-04-08T03:14:40Z")
Obviously, the oldest phrases used in English can’t be older than the language itself. The earliest form of the language, Old English, emerges in about the sixth century. But dateable evidence of the use of particular phrases would require them to be recorded in literature, and I think we have very little Old English literature from before the ninth century. So it’s going to be hard to beat the phrases Kimstu mentions that are found in _Beowulf_. There may be older phrases that were preserved in an oral tradition before being recorded in written form, but it’s going to be very hard to evidence that. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/24 "2019-04-08T03:36:05Z")
I recall some article discussing the production of the King James bible (suggesting KJ also never go around to paying the translators. King James would be the 1600’s. The article said the translators aimed for accuracy but also poetic turn of phrase, so some of those expressions may be original 1600’s. Chaucer mentions April showers in the first few lines. I believe “kiss my ass” is in one of his stories. Apparently several of Shakespeare’s words are not found anywhere else in contemporary literature. The old joke about Shakespeare is “What’s so great about his plays? They’re mostly just famous quotes strung together.” ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/25 "2019-04-08T05:08:51Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Obviously, the oldest phrases used in English can’t be older than the language itself. The earliest form of the language, Old English, emerges in about the sixth century. Yes, that was my point. Something like the collocations from Beowulf would be the only things that you could consider intact “_phrases_” in a meaningful sense, (rather than just single words of PIE origin). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/26 "2019-04-08T07:40:31Z")
OP’s question is somewhat ambiguous: How much change can a word undergo and still be the “same word”? > [@The Lord's Prayer](#): > > Fæder ure > ðu ðe eart on heofenum > si ðin nama gehalgod > to-becume ðin rice > geweorþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofenum. > Urne ge dæghwamlican hlaf syle us to-deag > **and forgyf us ure gyltas** > swa swa we forgifaþ urum gyltendum > ane ne gelæde ðu us on costnunge > ac alys us of yfle. Many of these Old English words are incomprehensible, but the seventh line, “And forgive us our guilts,” is almost the same as modern English. How old are the oldest words? Very old, if we’re to believe some talented but controversial linguists. As one example, consider Latin _aqua_. This word is echoed in America (Hokan _ahqha_, Tucano _axko_ and hundreds of others), Sino-Tibetan (Newari _khwo_), New Guinea (_okho_), proto-Afroasiatic (\*_akwa_), Nilo-Saharan (Mangbetu _eguo_), and even Khoisan (Kam-ka !Ke _k’'wa_). (No, I’ve not taken the time to render these in IPA.) Obviously the half-dozen words I’ve shown here could be coincidental — but in fact I excerpted these from a list of several dozens of such cognates. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/27 "2019-04-08T08:18:55Z")
Since _aqua_ exists as a word in English in its own right, it’s another one that has remained unchanged since Proto-Into-European, and possibly goes clear back to Proto-World. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/28 "2019-04-08T08:36:46Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Since _aqua_ exists as a word in English in its own right, it’s another one that has remained unchanged since Proto-Into-European, and possibly goes clear back to Proto-World. Although, ironically, the English word “aqua” doesn’t mean “water”; depending on context it means either a liquid (which may or may not be water but usually isn’t), a solution or a blue-green colour. Admittedly, as the stem in words like “aquatic” it does refer to water. But, of course, this is not what the OP is looking for. He is looking for phrases and expressions used in English speech. Even if “aqua” is the same word as something immeasurably ancient, it’s still not a phrase or, I think, an expression in the sense in which the OP uses the term. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/29 "2019-04-08T15:23:35Z")
_Eeny, meeny, miny, moe_ is possibly a corruption of an Old Saxon divining chant: [Eeny, meeny, miny, moe - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eeny,_meeny,_miny,_moe#Origins) > [@](#): > > Naarding calls its origin ‘a heathen priest song, that begs the highest goddess for an oracle while divining, an oracle that may decide about life and death of a human’. The first lines can be translated as 'foremother of mankind, give me a sign, I take the cut off pieces of a branch (= the rune wands)." This explanation was revived and extended in 2016 by Goaitsen van der Vliet, founder of the Twentse Taalbank (Twents Language Bank). The last line of the rhyme (in the Netherlands degenerated to ‘iet wiet waait weg’) can be translated as ‘I weigh it up’ (in Dutch ‘ik wik en weeg’). ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/30 "2019-04-09T01:41:10Z")
Here’s a list of words supposedly found in several language families: [https://curiosity.com/topics/these-are-23-of-the-oldest-words-ever-spoken-curiosity/](https://curiosity.com/topics/these-are-23-of-the-oldest-words-ever-spoken-curiosity/) Here’s a claim that “huh?” is the only word in every language: > **[Could One Word Unite The World?](https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/11/11/244573567/could-one-word-unite-the-world)** > > It feels natural to say: "huh?" According to a team of linguists in the Netherlands, this word — huh? — is universal. Commentator Alva Noë wonders if that's really possible. Do universal words exists, words common to every language here on Earth? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/31 "2019-04-09T02:16:03Z")
There’s a pair of dated interjections: “[by Jupiter!](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/by_Jupiter)” and “[by Jove!](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/by_Jove)”. According to Wiktionary, they are chiefly British interjections and are minced oaths for God. A minced oath is a polite expletive, in this case substituting the word “God” with “Jupiter” or “Jove”, to avoid using His name in vain. Here are a couple of videos I found showing usage of the “by Jove!” variant: [one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX6IlV7pcio), [two](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWuLfoKo0uE). Jupiter was the Roman god of the sky and thunder, and the king of the gods in Ancient Roman religion. The word _Jove_ is related to _Jupiter_, being the Latin ablative singular case of _Iuppiter_. The phrase “by Jupiter!” (Latin: _pro Iuppiter_) was a shortened form of an oath (“I swear by Jupiter that…”) that people had to swear in Roman law courts. It may also have been a commonplace interjection, along the lines of “my god!”, “OMG” etc. The word _Jupiter_ itself is ultimately thought to derive from the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European chief deity, called _[Dyēus Phter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus)_, which means “sky father”. Other gods with related etymology include Zeus, from Greek mythology, and _Dyauṣ Pitār_, from Vedic religion. While we can’t know for sure, since it’s from before written history, it’s probably reasonable to conject that Proto-Indo-European people might have had their own “By Dyēus Phter!” expression. I suggest that, lest these phrases - which might be thousands of years old - die out, we should take steps to revive them and and use them in our day-to-day lives, _by Jupiter!_ ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/32 "2019-04-09T02:52:17Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > _Apple_, at least, might be even older than PIE. It doesn’t really fit well with the language (the initial _a_-colored sound and the _b_ sound in the original word (_abel_ or _h2ebol_) were both pretty rare), so it could have been an import from some Asian tongue. Quite possible, as apples have a Central Asian origin. The name may have spread with the fruit. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/33 "2019-04-09T11:39:57Z")
Regarding _apple_: I’d read that this word is found only in Western branches so isn’t treated as from PIE. Google seems to confirm that, e.g. at [this rather lively discussion](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/etymology-of-apple.2475535/). ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/34 "2019-04-09T18:45:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > OP’s question is somewhat ambiguous: How much change can a word undergo and still be the “same word”? > Many of these Old English words are incomprehensible, but the seventh line, “And forgive us our guilts,” is almost the same as modern English. > > How old are the oldest words? Very old, if we’re to believe some talented but controversial linguists. As one example, consider Latin _aqua_. This word is echoed in America (Hokan _ahqha_, Tucano _axko_ and hundreds of others), Sino-Tibetan (Newari _khwo_), New Guinea (_okho_), proto-Afroasiatic (\*_akwa_), Nilo-Saharan (Mangbetu _eguo_), and even Khoisan (Kam-ka !Ke _k’'wa_). (No, I’ve not taken the time to render these in IPA.) Obviously the half-dozen words I’ve shown here could be coincidental — but in fact I excerpted these from a list of several dozens of such cognates. I also wonder what is meant by “the same”. After all, it’s difficult to reproduce human speech with letters. “Fæder” kind of reminds me of the old Sherman song, “Hello muddah, hello faddah…” Pronunciation can be interesting even with current day speech. When we were in New Zealand, we joked about the expression of “tekking a feeree across thee wahttah en thee hahbbah”. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/35 "2019-04-09T19:05:48Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > … > For example, the words “I” and “who” are among the oldest, along with the words “two”, “three”, and “five”. The word “one” is only slightly younger. I imagine there is a ready answer, but how did they get a word for “five” before “four”? Or did Monty Python misread the instructions for the holy hand grenade? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/36 "2019-04-09T19:12:12Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Regarding _apple_: I’d read that this word is found only in Western branches so isn’t treated as from PIE. Google seems to confirm that, e.g. at [this rather lively discussion](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/etymology-of-apple.2475535/). I _almost_ stopped reading once Theo Vennemann was invoked. Glad I didn’t. Great link! ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/37 "2019-04-09T19:25:09Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > Quite possible, as apples have a Central Asian origin. The name may have spread with the fruit. While the Central Asian _Malus sieversii_ wild apple has shown to be the primary ancestor of most cultivars of the domesticated apple (_Malus pumila_), the European crab apple (_Malus sylvestris_), which is native to Europe, has been shown by DNA analysis to have contributed significantly to the genome. While rather sour-tasting when eaten raw, crab apples are edible, although better when cooked. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/38 "2019-04-09T19:38:00Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I imagine there is a ready answer, but how did they get a word for “five” before “four”? > > Or did Monty Python misread the instructions for the holy hand grenade? Presumably they used another, unrelated word for “four”? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/39 "2019-04-09T20:21:09Z")
Names for body parts are slow to be replaced also, as seen on [Swadesh’s list of 100 slow-to-be-replaced words](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swadesh_list). That list also includes 4 animal body parts — horn, tail, feather, claw — and four animals — bird, dog, fish and … louse! > [@Dinsdale](#): > > I imagine there is a ready answer, but how did they get a word for “five” before “four”? Likely by borrowing the word for ‘hand.’ ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/40 "2019-04-09T20:37:32Z")
Or perhaps they used the word for two, twice, instead of having a word for four? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178.md?page=3)