# Oldest phrases/expressions used in today's English **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 7, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178 "2019-04-07T17:29:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/41 "2019-04-09T20:40:44Z")
BTW, another language oddity. Words for colors didn’t appear all at once, so that, for example, there’s [no reference to the color blue in Homer’s Odyssey](https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/211213-sky-isnt-blue). ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/42 "2019-04-09T21:16:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > BTW, another language oddity. Words for colors didn’t appear all at once, so that, for example, there’s [no reference to the color blue in Homer’s Odyssey](https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/211213-sky-isnt-blue). Well, maybe. I believe the sky is described as “bronze-colored” in a few places (might be in the Iliad). [This](https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-image-weathered-bronze-statues-image4445101) is what weathered bronze looks like. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/43 "2019-04-09T21:59:48Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > Well, maybe. I believe the sky is described as “bronze-colored” in a few places (might be in the Iliad). [This](https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-image-weathered-bronze-statues-image4445101) is what weathered bronze looks like. That’s actually evidence of Ancient Greek not having a word for “blue”. They use “X-colored” (where X is something blueish) instead of just using a single color word. It’s the same for the the ocean, which is always called “wine-dark sea” in the Iliad. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/44 "2019-04-10T00:32:57Z")
According to the Berlin-Kay color theory, there is a fixed order in which colors appear in languages: > **[Linguistic relativity and the color naming debate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity_and_the_color_naming_debate)** > > The concept of linguistic relativity concerns the relationship between language and thought, specifically whether language influences thought, and, if so, how. This question has led to research in multiple disciplines—including anthropology, cognitive science, linguistics, and philosophy. Among the most debated theories in this area of work is the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis. This theory states that the language a person speaks will affect the way that this person thinks. The theory varies between ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/45 "2019-04-10T04:13:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > That list also includes 4 animal body parts — horn, tail, feather, claw — and four animals — bird, dog, fish and … louse! “Dog” is an odd word. It just suddenly appears in Old English as “dogca” around 1000 AD, and gradually replaced “hound” as the general name for a canine. “Hound” became restricted to particular types of dogs The odd thing is that “hound” has numerous cognates in other Germanic languages (e.g. “hund” in German). “Dog” has no known cognates, and no apparent history prior to 1000. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/46 "2019-04-10T12:16:18Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper;21582895…“Dog” has no known cognates, and no apparent history prior to 1000.[/QUOTE] If there were an antecedent, would that be “dogma”? (And the lost “dogpa”?) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/47 "2019-04-10T12:34:10Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > “Dog” is an odd word. It just suddenly appears in Old English as “dogca” around 1000 AD, and gradually replaced “hound” as the general name for a canine. “Hound” became restricted to particular types of dogs > > The odd thing is that “hound” has numerous cognates in other Germanic languages (e.g. “hund” in German). “Dog” has no known cognates, and no apparent history prior to 1000. I think that’s evidence of pre-contact visits from the Australian [Mbabaram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbabaram_language#Word_for_%22dog%22). ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/48 "2019-04-10T17:40:51Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > “Dog” is an odd word. It just suddenly appears in Old English as “dogca” around 1000 AD, and gradually replaced “hound” as the general name for a canine. “Hound” became restricted to particular types of dogs > > The odd thing is that “hound” has numerous cognates in other Germanic languages (e.g. “hund” in German). “Dog” has no known cognates, and no apparent history prior to 1000. Move to Spanish, and the dog mystery continues–_perro_ is also of unknown origin and has no proven cognates. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/49 "2019-04-10T20:34:23Z")
My guess about dogs. Today we have poodles and oodles of other dog breeds: labs, beagles, huskies, cockers, spaniels, boxers, collies, terriers, etc. So many breeds that a clear-cut generic word is needed. [wild speculation] But what was the situation when Anglo-Saxons arrived in Britain? Or Romans arrived in Spain? There were probably only a few breeds, all different from what the invaders were used to, and just one of which would be especially prized by the invaders. The breed name (‘dogca’ or ‘perro’), probably from the indigenous language, would become the word of choice, and would soon become a generic word. We’d have little chance of guessing the etymology now for what started as just the name of a particular breed. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/50 "2019-04-10T21:28:49Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I think that’s evidence of pre-contact visits from the Australian [Mbabaram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbabaram_language#Word_for_%22dog%22). I also like the _kohen_ / _kahuna_ idea that Hawaii was first settled by Jews. Not as striking as the _dog_ similarity, but still pretty neat. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/51 "2019-04-11T02:51:41Z")
The ‘w’ in Hawaii is pronounced as ‘v’ in native Hawaiian, _just as it is in Yiddish_. A coincidence? …Well, probably so. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/52 "2019-04-11T04:35:19Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > “Dog” is an odd word. It just suddenly appears in Old English as “dogca” around 1000 AD, and gradually replaced “hound” as the general name for a canine. “Hound” became restricted to particular types of dogs > > The odd thing is that “hound” has numerous cognates in other Germanic languages (e.g. “hund” in German). “Dog” has no known cognates, and no apparent history prior to 1000. Bird also is odd. It is derived from Old English _brid_ for a young bird, but does not have cognates in other Germanic languages. It is of unknown origin and relationships. The common Old English term for bird was _fugel_, which became fowl, with obvious cognates in Dutch and German _vogel_. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/53 "2019-04-11T08:07:26Z")
> [@Civil\_Guy](#): > > The ‘w’ in Hawaii is pronounced as ‘v’ in native Hawaiian, _just as it is in Yiddish_. A coincidence? …Well, probably so. Not a coincidence at all. The sound in both cases precedes the letter, Hawaiian having been an unwritten language, and Yiddish being written in Hebrew script. Transliterations of both languages into the Latin alphabet were constructed by _people who already used the Latin alphabet_, who were culturally quite closely related to one another. With Hawaiian, the issue is not “why is -w- pronounced with ‘v’ sound?”, but rather “why did the transliterators choose -w- to represent this sound?” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/54 "2019-04-11T08:28:37Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > I expect most, if not all, those Biblical phrases didn’t become common phrases or idioms in English until many people had a chance to read it in English. That would likely be sometime in the 16th-17th centuries. No, until people started talking about it in English, which would be equal to the time English started existing. Sermons, catechesis, etc. were in the vernacular. Also note that Jews, a group which unlike its goyim neighbors was generally literate, would usually read the Bible in a language much older than Latin but speak with the neighbors in whatever the neighbors spoke. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178/55 "2019-04-11T19:44:53Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Not a coincidence at all. The sound in both cases precedes the letter, Hawaiian having been an unwritten language, and Yiddish being written in Hebrew script. Transliterations of both languages into the Latin alphabet were constructed by _people who already used the Latin alphabet_, who were culturally quite closely related to one another. > > With Hawaiian, the issue is not “why is -w- pronounced with ‘v’ sound?”, but rather “why did the transliterators choose -w- to represent this sound?” (I was trying to play off of the ridiculous idea that Hawaii was first settled by Jews. I missed.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oldest-phrases-expressions-used-in-todays-english/832178.md?page=2)