# Olmert's parting shot: Israel must withdraw from West Bank **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891 "2008-09-30T18:19:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/21 "2008-10-01T04:12:43Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The Western Powers had no right to carve up and give anything to anyone. > > In 1967 the Israelis, thinking it in their best interest, initiated a pre-emptive attack against the Arab nations surrounding it. Israel thought in good faith that they were about to be attacked. This, incidentally, is a much better example of the right to pre-emptive war the Bush’s WMD lies. It gets the arguable cover of international law because Israel reasonably thought it was going to be attacked. Your post implies that the Arabs invaded and shot first. Not so. It is highly likely that they were going to do so. > > You seem to be arguing a right of conquest. Good luck with that in the long term. That is the way of chaos and war and hatred. War is an uncontrollable demon. I only pray for peace for all these people who should soften their hearts and learn to live side by side. > > No other Arab state wanted the Palestinians because they were not nationals of any other state, they were Palestinians. No nation in the world takes the bizarre position that Palestinians are Jordanians except Israel. The Palestinians deny it, the Jordanians deny it. Palestinians are not some kind of unwanted human refuse, they are human beings who enjoy the same basic human right to live where they were born that anyone else does. Israelis do not have any superior claim to the land over the Palestinians outside of UN resolutions, and driving them out and making them refugees does not revoke that right, regardless of whether some of them make war or terrorism in protest. While criminal activity such as terrorism may remove someone’s civil rights, it does not remove human rights and they cannot legally be deported or driven from the land of their birth. > > Goal posts is a useless metaphor. It is not a football game. Until the parties agree and enact a settlement, nobody is obligated to honor their own or anyone else’s offer. If the Palestinians do not wish to deal from whatever position of weakness or strength that they may have at any given time, they are under no obligation to keep their demands the same. The same goes for the Israelis. Demographically and historically continued hostility moves against Israel. Voting non-Jewish Israelis will in decades to come soon outnumber voting Jewish Israelis. The United States cannot remaind a world-wide hegemon indefinitely and continue to support Israel financially and militarily as thoroughly as it has. Over the course of time, a Jewish state in the middle east has a much better chance of flourishing in peace than it does in constant war and unrest. Well, what do you suggest if every time Israel decides to give in to a demand, the Palestinians decide the need yet another concession? I don’t know any other figure of speech that sums that up as well as “moving the goal posts.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/22 "2008-10-01T04:27:02Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Well, what do you suggest if every time Israel decides to give in to a demand, the Palestinians decide the need yet another concession? I don’t know any other figure of speech that sums that up as well as “moving the goal posts.” Bait and switch? 😉 > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The Western Powers had no right to carve up and give anything to anyone. Yes, they did. The Ottoman Empire, which was the sovereign of the region for roughly 400 years, fell. In its place, the new sovereign powers decided that individual nation-states should be created from the wreckage. A list of the nations ‘carved up’ out of the Ottoman wreckage includes most of the recognizable major ME powers today. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > In 1967 the Israelis, thinking it in their best interest, initiated a pre-emptive attack against the Arab nations surrounding it. Simply untrue. The first Act of War was the Egyptian blockade against Israel. Israel, in turn, destroyed Egypt’s airforce while it was still on the ground. Jordan entered the fighting even after Israel asked them to refrain (and in the process, lost the West Bank and Jerusalem, which they’d rendered Judenrein). Syria had already been attacking Israelis from the vantage of the Golan before Israel responded militarily. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Your post implies that the Arabs invaded and shot first. Not so. In the case of Syria and Jordan, yes so. In the case of Egypt, their attack was a military blockade rather than actual shooting. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You seem to be arguing a right of conquest. If we invalidate the right of conquest, groups like Hamas lose their own claim to sovereignty over the land. [ > [@](#): > > When the idea was ripe, the seed grew and the plant struck root in the soil of reality, away from passing emotions, and hateful haste. The Islamic Resistance Movement emerged to carry out its role through striving for the sake of its Creator, its arms intertwined with those of all the fighters for the liberation of Palestine. The spirits of its fighters meet with the spirits of all the fighters who have sacrificed their lives on the soil of Palestine, ever since it was conquered by the companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, and until this day. > > […] > > The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day? > > This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement. ]([http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm](http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm)) If conquest is truly invalid, then the Arabs have no claim to the region since they invaded it to gain their control of it. But, of course, previous conquests _are_ valid, as proved by the fact that virtually every nation in North, Central and South America still exist. While we can say that no further possession via conquest will be allowed, we simply can’t discount it or the vast majority of modern nations would be abolished. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > No other Arab state wanted the Palestinians because they were not nationals of any other state, they were Palestinians. 1. As many nations were _created_ around that time period, it’s disingenuous to claim that the reason they didn’t accept the also newly-created Palestinians was because they were part of “another state”. 2. It especially doesn’t address how Jordanians became Palestinians overnight, and thus subject to the Apartheid laws that many Arab nations have. 3. There also was never, in the history of humanity, a sovereign state of Palestine. At best, it was a region within the Roman or Ottoman empires. Even under the Ottoman Empire, it was ruled from the administrative capital of Damascus, not Jerusalem. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > No nation in the world takes the bizarre position that Palestinians are Jordanians except Israel. 1. Israel doesn’t take that position officially as they have agreed several times to a sovereign Palestinian state. 2. Some current Palestinians were Egyptians, too. They weren’t all Jordanians . > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The Palestinians deny it, the Jordanians deny it. You can define nationality as you will, but to claim that someone was a Jordanian on one day, and a Palestinian the next once the place they lived was conquered, is rather odd. No matter who agrees. It is accurate to talk about creating a Palestinian people, or the created Palestinian people, much as we can talk about how Israel was created, but it is fictional to talk about a Palestinian state, or Palestinian citizens. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > and driving them out and making them refugees does not revoke that right, 1. In '48, a great many fled because their leaders told them to. While there were some strategically necessary expulsions, and some gratuitous ones, it certainly was neither the rule nor the 2. Israel offered back the conquered '67 territories and was met with the Three Noes, no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel’s right to exist, no negotiation with Israel. 3. The Arab nations to which the Palestinians fled are primarily responsible for keeping them as refugees. As I’ve already said, many of the Arab nations have Apartheid laws making it illegal for Palestinians to live/work/immigrate there. Egypt, for example, before the Six Day War, Gaza’s population was kept under travel restrictions and curfews, by their _Egyptian_ rulers. There are _still_ refugee camps in Lebanon. I’ve already posted about how Lebanon recently _shelled_ one of them. Yes, there should be a negotiated peace with security, viable agricultural and water rights for both regions and freedom of movement. There should be an immediate and permanent settlement freeze on Israel’s side and real and substantive stop of genocidal incitement, terrorist activity and attempts to reform the so-called Lost Generation by the Palestinians. But no situation is helped by getting the facts wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/23 "2008-10-01T13:38:39Z")
What **Finn** said. And I am neither Jewish nor a Zionist. In fact, I’m an Atheist. Not a neo-con, either. This is just my view of what is right based on events in the region. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/24 "2008-10-01T13:41:12Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > _However_, the nature of the Mandate really does suggest that if this is about having adequate space and resources, that Jordan should be coughing some up as well. Like what? Should Jordan cede some territory? Cede it to **whom?** ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/25 "2008-10-01T13:49:38Z")
:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/26 "2008-10-01T13:51:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Like what? Should Jordan cede some territory? Cede it to **whom?** I think, the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/27 "2008-10-01T13:57:29Z")
No, no, the Inuit. Jordan would have the element of surprise, it’d be perfect, nobody would see it coming! ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/28 "2008-10-01T14:09:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, no, the Inuit. > Jordan would have the element of surprise, it’d be perfect, nobody would see it coming! Yes, it certainly would startle the Inuit if Jordan ceded them territory, and no one would see it coming. 😃 ETA: A real power play, that. ETAA: I wonder if it might work… ETAAA: Be better if it were between the Palestinians and Israel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/29 "2008-10-01T14:34:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > :rolleyes: No, seriously. What does Jordan have to “cough up” that could possibly help the situation? You know the Pals in the WB have about as much interest in relocating east of the river as King Abdullah has in extending his rule west of it. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/30 "2008-10-01T14:41:21Z")
So Inuit-land is out? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/31 "2008-10-01T14:42:16Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > So Inuit-land is out? Nuh unh! We’ve got a rally planned and everything. There will be a drum circle. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/32 "2008-10-01T14:42:49Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > So Inuit-land is out? Until they can breed the ever-elusive Desert Walrus. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/33 "2008-10-01T14:50:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Until they can breed the ever-elusive Desert Walrus. I WANT one! I’ll bring him home and pet him and stroke him and call him George. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/34 "2008-10-01T15:08:39Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > The area formerly known as Palestine and then as Trans-Jordan was split into two pieces, a bigger one and a smaller one. The bigger one was given to the Arabs and called Jordan. The smaller one was given to the Jews and called Israel. That’s kinda making a false dichotomy and implying that Jordan is the whole of the Arab state, and pre-67 Israel was the whole of the Jewish one. In actual fact the “smaller one” you mention was itself subdivided between Jews and Arabs in the first place. [Here’s a map](http://www.mideastweb.org/unpartition.htm) of the original UN Partition Plan. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/35 "2008-10-01T15:45:04Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > That’s kinda making a false dichotomy and implying that Jordan is the whole of the Arab state, and pre-67 Israel was the whole of the Jewish one. In actual fact the “smaller one” you mention was itself subdivided between Jews and Arabs in the first place. [Here’s a map](http://www.mideastweb.org/unpartition.htm) of the original UN Partition Plan. If everyone will stick to that with no fighting, AND I get an Elusive Desert Walrus, I’m willing to go with the UN Partition Plan. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/36 "2008-10-01T16:07:43Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > If everyone will stick to that with no fighting, AND I get an Elusive Desert Walrus, I’m willing to go with the UN Partition Plan. Nooo! They be stealin’ my Lebanon! ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/37 "2008-10-01T16:20:05Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Nooo! They be stealin’ my Lebanon! Oh, shit, does that go into Lebanon and Syria and Egypt? OK, _somebody_ has to suck it up around here. I don’t care who it is, but somebody does. The Palestinians, or Lebanon, or Syria, or Egypt, or Jordan, or Israel, or some combination thereof. Let’s start with some basics. Israel is there. Suck it up. They have at least the property they had in that 1947 map. Jerusalem is an international city. It will be administered by the Swiss Guard, the same people who guard The Vatican. Now, Arabs, work out the rest. My walrus should wait at the London Zoo. Or maybe the Bronx Zoo. What’s the best habitat zoo in the world? ETA: Maybe he should wait in the wild. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/38 "2008-10-01T17:24:41Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Oh, shit, does that go into Lebanon and Syria and Egypt? > > OK, _somebody_ has to suck it up around here. I don’t care who it is, but somebody does. The Palestinians, or Lebanon, or Syria, or Egypt, or Jordan, or Israel, or some combination thereof. > > Let’s start with some basics. Israel is there. Suck it up. They have at least the property they had in that 1947 map. > > Jerusalem is an international city. It will be administered by the Swiss Guard, the same people who guard The Vatican. > > Now, Arabs, work out the rest. > > My walrus should wait at the London Zoo. Or maybe the Bronx Zoo. What’s the best habitat zoo in the world? > > ETA: Maybe he should wait in the wild. [Click](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/eljorge/lolrus.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/39 "2008-10-01T18:00:42Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > Personally, I think that Jerusalem should go back to the old idea of a UN-administered enclave, independent of either country. Stop fighting! It belongs to the world. Somehow, some way, that’s **got** to be a fulfillment of End Times Prophecy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891/40 "2008-10-01T18:05:00Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > Stop fighting! [God-Man agrees.](http://archive.salon.com/comics/boll/2002/04/11/boll/index.html) [Yet, somehow . . .](http://archive.salon.com/comics/boll/2003/06/19/boll/index1.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olmerts-parting-shot-israel-must-withdraw-from-west-bank/465891.md?page=3)