# Olympic Boxing Gender Controversy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161 "2024-08-01T22:13:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/181 "2024-08-06T02:52:50Z")
It was also mentioned that Kremlev (whose name even sounds like ‘Kremlin’) went on for some time about the opening ceremony, which has nothing to do with boxing, women’s sports, or Russia (would Russian Orthodox Christians even care about a painting by an Italian Catholic?), but is pure red meat for the culture warrior crowd. It’s just part of a cynical ploy to weaken confidence in western institutions and strengthen isolationist nationalists who won’t stand in the way of Czarist irredentism. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/182 "2024-08-06T02:54:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I didn’t say testosterone per se, I said testosterone during puberty. Someone who goes through puberty with the ~30x increase in testosterone that is typical for boys will have the skeleton, skeletal muscle and proportionately lower body fat that typifies male sexual dimorphism in humans. I believe that you are overestimating the advantage that testosterone during puberty gives to men. Yes those factors you mention are _on average_ greater in men. But there is going to be significant overlap between men and women. Especially for men and women at the Olympic level. Read my response above re the factors involved in the difference between women’s and men’s performance. In the nature vs nurture debate I am strongly on the side of nurture. And people raised as male are treated very differently than people raised as female. > [@Mijin](#): > > It makes far less difference what their testosterone level is later in life. You want to tell that to the IAAF that won’t let Caster Semenya compete unless she takes testosterone blockers? > [@Mijin](#): > > But I am confused as to what your position is. You seemed to be implying earlier that you don’t think that everybody who identifies as female should be able to join women’s events…so you’re agreeing that there is an advantage for people who developed initially with male traits, right? So why are you apparently questioning that here? I don’t know where you got that, that is the exact opposite of what I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/183 "2024-08-06T03:31:06Z")
Good heavens that Daily Mail article is just jaw-dropping, and [this BBC Sport follow-up,](https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cq5dd2lz8y8o.amp) which includes an interview with IBA exec Roberts, no less so. The IBA folks literally don’t seem to be on the same page with one another about whether the alleged results were from chromosome tests or hormone tests. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/184 "2024-08-06T03:37:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > - Still possible but looking more suspect: The claim that Imane Khelif and/or Lin Yu-ting did actually obtain disqualifying results in 2023 from some kind of legitimate gender-eligibility test which knocked them out of the 2023 championships, consistently with officially established rules The “officially established rules” part, at least, didn’t exist. It’s in the IBA meeting minutes where Kremlev told the IBA board he had decided to disqualify both Khelif and Lin and they later ratified this decision he had already made. At that same meeting the board also discussed the need to actually establish a clear procedure for gender testing. They literally decided to make up the rules after the fact. Shitshow is probably one of the kinder ways to describe the current IBA. No shocker for a group that’s pretty much known to be stooges for Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/185 "2024-08-06T03:40:34Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > But there is going to be significant overlap between men and women. Especially for men and women at the Olympic level. This part I don’t get. Yes, as that previously cited 2018 study showed, there’s a lot of overlap in testosterone levels between male and female Olympic athletes. But there is absolutely not, AFAICT, anything approaching overlap in their competition performance levels. (Not in these running/throwing/hitting/lifting type sports, at least. Some other sports, like equestrian competitions, do have a lot more gender overlap (and consequently, AFAICT, mixed-gender teams), along with far greater age-group overlap.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/186 "2024-08-06T03:53:19Z")
Point taken. [Mother Jones weighs in with more info about IBA machinations.](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/08/olympic-boxing-imane-khelif-umar-kremlev/) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/187 "2024-08-06T04:14:47Z")
This guy: Full title: **JD Vance falsely accuses Algerian Olympic boxer of being transgender & weirdly blames Kamala Harris** > **[JD Vance falsely accuses Algerian Olympic boxer of being transgender &...](https://www.advocate.com/news/jd-vance-criticizes-boxer-harris)** > > It’s the latest eyebrow-raising comment the Republican vice presidential candidate has made. > Vance posted on X (formerly [Twitter](http://advocate.com/twitter)) on Thursday, sharing a video initially posted by far-right influencer Charlie Kirk. The footage depicted Khelif’s recent [Olympic](http://advocate.com/olympics) match in Paris, during which her [Italian](http://advocate.com/italy) opponent, Angela Carini, withdrew shortly after the bout began, citing the intensity of Khelif’s punches. > > In his tweet, Vance commented, “This is where Kamala Harris’s ideas about gender lead: to a grown man pummeling a woman in a boxing match. This is disgusting, and all of our leaders should condemn it.” Kirk’s post, which Vance retweeted, falsely claimed, “The Olympics just allowed a biological man, Imane Khelif, to pummel Italian Olympian Angela Carini. Her life’s work was stolen by a man who beats up women for sport. Will someone have to die before people wake up?! This entire ideology is pure evil.” ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/188 "2024-08-06T05:25:17Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Shitshow is probably one of the kinder ways to describe the current IBA. The IOC is one of the most corrupt sporting institutions on the planet, and if they say an organization is too corrupt for them, that tells you everything you need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/189 "2024-08-06T20:25:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In his tweet, Vance commented, “This is where Kamala Harris’s ideas about gender lead: to a grown man pummeling a woman in a boxing match. This is disgusting, and all of our leaders should condemn it.” Ironically, by tweeting out this openly bigoted shit, from a political perspective Vance was viciously punching himself in the groin. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/190 "2024-08-06T20:48:30Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Ironically, by tweeting out this openly bigoted shit, from a political perspective Vance was viciously punching himself in the groin. In what way? Won’t his people just eat it up? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/191 "2024-08-06T20:50:28Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > In what way? Won’t his people just eat it up? Yeah, the people that campaign already has in the bag. Everybody else will laugh at him. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/192 "2024-08-06T20:51:59Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > In what way? Won’t his people just eat it up? Because politically speaking, “his people” are meaningless. MAGA isn’t nearly large enough to elect Trump. And the more extreme they get, the more they drive away folks outside of their base. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/193 "2024-08-06T20:54:34Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Everybody else will laugh at him. My brain went to _Carrie_. “They’re all going to laugh at you!” ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/194 "2024-08-06T21:13:13Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > My brain went to _Carrie_. “They’re all going to laugh at you!” Well, if Vance had telekinesis, I’d be worried. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/195 "2024-08-07T03:06:35Z")
Oh, and this just in: [Imane Khelif has won her third bout, and will now be boxing for the gold.](https://sports.yahoo.com/paris-olympics-imane-khelif-moves-on-to-gold-medal-bout-with-another-unanimous-victory-210354375.html) Good for her. (Her most recent opponent, Thailand’s Janjaem\_Suwannapheng, is the same fighter Khelif beat in the 2023 championships just before being disqualified.) ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/196 "2024-08-07T05:05:50Z")
Perhaps this is a moot point, but Khelif does not have short hair. She is wearing corn rows. At least I think that is the proper name of her hair style. It is braided in rows down her scalp and ends in a mid length ponytail or braid. I’m just sayin’ that is not short hair. I hope she takes gold and makes all the bigots heads explode, ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/197 "2024-08-07T05:16:33Z")
> [@Sylvanz](#): > > Perhaps this is a moot point, but Khelif does not have short hair. She is wearing corn rows. The two aren’t mutually exclusive: Khelif’s hair [is in fact pretty short](https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sport-olympics/imane-khelif-gold-olympics-boxing-gender-row-b1175086.html), as you can see in pictures like this one where she’s wearing it unbraided. It’s not as short as a standard “taper”-type or “short back and sides” guy-type haircut, but it’s not the ponytail material that a lot of female boxers wear. Many men with hair even shorter than Khelif’s wear scalp braids like hers: [here’s a demo of braiding that way on hair as short as 2 inches.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpPsiNGHXiI) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/198 "2024-08-07T05:54:15Z")
Oh, and: > [@Sylvanz](#): > > I hope she takes gold and makes all the bigots heads explode, I hope she does too, but I’m pretty sure that the bigots will be able to twist any outcome to serve their narrative. If she and/or Lin Yu-Ting takes gold, the bigots will announce “See?! Gotta be a man, look at how easily they defeated all those female boxers!” (Never mind that AFAICT, all their opponents have lost bouts in the past to other female boxers as well.) If either or both of them don’t take gold, the bigots will say that they deliberately threw the match to try to quiet suspicions and outrage about their “suspect” eligibility. Assholes gonna asshole. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/199 "2024-08-07T18:18:56Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > There are only two possibilities for why she chose to spread an actively dangerous rumor about Khelif. Both might factor but honestly after reading her tweets for years I think she’s just exceptionally paranoid of men. Which isn’t uncommon among TERFs. And not an excuse to be awful obviously. But I think that’s her main motivation. I think she was in an abusive relationship and it’s permanently affected her world view. She thought the boxer thing was a slam dunk example and jumped right on it without any kind of vetting or fact checking process. I think it didn’t even occur to her that the boxer could be cis, or intersex/dsd. I don’t think I’ve ever seen her even talk about trans men, they mostly get ignored unless she wants to fear monger about top surgery but she doesn’t give a thought to adult trans men. What’s even worse is that I’m starting to get the lowkey impression from some of her tweets that she might just also think women of color look mannish. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/200 "2024-08-08T16:11:56Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > She thought the boxer thing was a slam dunk example and jumped right on it without any kind of vetting or fact checking process. That’s the part of JK Rowling’s behavior in the whole ongoing “gender controversy” that’s really most reprehensible, IMHO. Rowling undeniably has a brilliantly vivid imagination and an ability to craft compelling hero/villain/victim narratives that engage the reader. But the extent to which she’s irresponsibly using those talents to make up and publicly disseminate stories about individuals she knows nothing about, and scientifically complex issues she doesn’t understand, is appalling. > [@jackdavinci](#): > > What’s even worse is that I’m starting to get the lowkey impression from some of her tweets that she might just also think women of color look mannish. Well, contra, there’s the famous incident in 2015 [where Rowling mocked some Twitter commenter for saying that tennis champ Serena Williams is “built like a man”.](https://www.businessinsider.com/jk-rowling-tweets-about-serena-williams-2015-7) But then, of course, Williams has very pronounced bust and butt curves and wears her hair long (and, like most female tennis players, frequently competes in the traditional cute little short-skirted dresses). So that doesn’t ping the transphobes’ alleged “male detectors”. I would not be at all surprised if there are some race-related reasons why Rowling jumps to the conclusion that flatter-chested, shorter-haired, strong-featured muscular female athletes of color like Khelif and Lim are “male”, but doesn’t seem to worry that flatter-chested, shorter-haired, strong-featured muscular white female athletes like [boxer Diana Prazak](https://www.awakeningfighters.com/article/spotlight-diana-prazak/) might be “male”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161.md?page=11)