# Olympic Boxing Gender Controversy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161 "2024-08-01T22:13:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/21 "2024-08-02T19:11:12Z")
Thanks to all of you who have posted. I’ve seen a sickening amount of hatred and ignorance about this in other places. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/22 "2024-08-02T19:19:20Z")
Wow, if the IOC says you’re corrupt… ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/23 "2024-08-02T19:20:24Z")
I know, right? 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/24 "2024-08-02T19:47:33Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Elsewhere, someone saying she is a geneticist says: Got a cite for this quote? Because [the National Organization for Rare Disorders description of Swyer syndrome](https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/) that you linked to upthread, which references in detail a lot of work by actual geneticists, seems to disagree pretty strongly with that reductionist perspective. Their article consistently refers to individuals with Swyer syndrome as “girls” and “women”, not “male”. (Nor does it use different capitalization conventions for “Male” [sic] and “female”, as your quoted passage does.) The article also points out that Swyer-syndrome XY women can become pregnant and give birth using donated eggs, so, doesn’t seem all that “Male” [sic] to me? IANA geneticist, but IME, research published by actual geneticists tends not to make simplistic binary assertions about variations in human sexual development. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/25 "2024-08-02T19:56:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Got a cite for this quote? My guess is that it’s a random person on social media. I tried searching for the exact wording of snippets from that quote and found nothing, so I doubt it was published anywhere noteworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/26 "2024-08-02T20:09:52Z")
I’m sure that it’s a coincidence that she just recently beat a Russian boxer. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/27 "2024-08-02T20:11:06Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > My guess is that it’s a random person on social media. Yeah, subject to correction by the better-informed, that’s what it smelled like to me too. “Geneticist”, uh-huh. Update: I would like to withdraw my above snarky remarks about Khelif’s defeated opponent Angela Carini, who now seems to have [issued an apology for her earlier behavior](https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/c2j3jg51rg4o) that’s gracious and decent, and incidentally respects Khelif’s female identity: > [@](#): > > “I’m sorry for my opponent, too. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.” > > Carini, also 25, said abandoning the fight had been a mature step to take, but she expressed regret at not shaking hands with Khelif afterwards. > > “It wasn’t something I intended to do,” Carini said. “Actually, I want to apologise to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke.” > > She added that if she met Khelif again, she would “embrace her”. […] > > Khelif has always competed in the women’s division and is recognised by the IOC as a female athlete. > “The Algerian boxer was born female, was registered female, lived her life as a female, boxed as a female, has a female passport,” IOC spokesperson Mark Adams said on Friday. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/28 "2024-08-02T20:14:09Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Elsewhere, someone saying she is a geneticist says: I’m not a geneticist, and I can still tell that post is complete bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/29 "2024-08-02T20:14:57Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > Got a cite for this quote? > > My guess is that it’s a random person on social media. Yeah, someone on Farcebook. That’s why I said she _says_ she’s a geneticist. > [@Miller](#): > > I’m not a geneticist, and I can still tell that post is complete bullshit. Yep. Me too. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/30 "2024-08-02T20:15:46Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yeah, someone on Farcebook. That’s why I said she _says_ she’s a geneticist. I did note that in your original post, you never implied that the quote was from someone with actual expertise or authority. It’s a good example of the misinformation out there that is fueling these criticisms. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/31 "2024-08-02T20:21:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The article also points out that Swyer-syndrome XY women can become pregnant and give birth using donated eggs, so, doesn’t seem all that “Male” [sic] to me? She should obviously make her own decisions on this based on her situation, independent of any symbolism, but part of me hopes that she eventually goes this route, just to watch the heads of all of her detractors explode. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/32 "2024-08-02T20:28:47Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I’m sure that it’s a coincidence that she just recently beat a Russian boxer. Hmmmm, and the other boxer that IBA retroactively disqualified from the 2023 world championships on allegations of failing a gender eligibility test, [Lin Yu-Ting, had won her bronze medal by beating Bulgarian boxer Staneva Svetlana Kamenova.](https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/news/4847630) Lin’s disqualification, of course, meant that Kamenova got the bronze. > [@](#): > > However, as Lin was preparing to receive her bronze medal, officials at the last minute stripped her of the medal and awarded it to Bulgaria’s Staneva Svetlana Kamenova, who had lost to Lin in the quarter-finals. > > Officials did not provide an explanation to Lin or her coach John Tseng (曾自強) at the time why she had been disqualified. Later that day, the Chinese Taipei Boxing Association announced that Lin’s pre-match gender test taken on March 16 had come back with an abnormality and that the report would be sent to the association, which can appeal the decision through official channels, reported [UDN](https://udn.com/news/story/7005/7058182). > > Lin is a highly decorated athlete, having won gold medals at the 2018 AIBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in New Delhi in the bantamweight category and at the 2022 IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in Istanbul in the featherweight class. She also took gold at the 2017 Asian Women’s Amateur Boxing Championships in Ho Chi Minh City and the 2019 Asian Amateur Boxing Championships in Bangkok and has never failed a gender test in the past. In those same championships (but in the welterweight class), Khelif defeated Russia’s Azalia Amineva in the round of 16, then Uzbekistan’s Navbakhor Khomidova in the quarterfinals, then Thailand’s Janjaem Suwannapheng in the semis, before getting the gender-eligibility disqualification. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > She should obviously make her own decisions on this based on her situation, independent of any symbolism, but part of me hopes that she eventually goes this route, just to watch the heads of all of her detractors explode. Well, given that we have no firm evidence yet that Khelif even does have a Y chromosome, much less what kind of putative DSD might accompany it if she did, it’s difficult to assess what her various future reproductive options might be. Still, I join you in wishing her all the best in her personal fulfillment and whatever role parenthood may play in that, as well as in her sports career. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/33 "2024-08-02T20:39:06Z")
This is unsourced, but it’s an assertion that there is some seriously hinky shit going on between the IOC and the International Boxing Association with significant Russian influence happening in the background. > If there’s anything to this, then JK Rowling has become a useful idiot for the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/34 "2024-08-02T20:43:36Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > JK Rowling is a truly terrible human being who could not possibly be more full of hateful shit on this topic. Christ, I’m sick of her noise. A woman in my social circle presents as female but is non-binary – I don’t know the precise details. Her nickname within the group was Hermione because early on she was all, “I know! I know! Pick me!” She’s asked us to not call her that any more. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/35 "2024-08-02T20:46:45Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > This is unsourced, but it’s an assertion that there is some seriously hinky shit going on between the IOC and the International Boxing Association with significant Russian influence happening in the background. Oh, there are sources. Much of it listed in an article in the NYTimes today (free gift link below): [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/02/world/olympics/boxing-imane-khelif-gender-athletes.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.\_00.uIl9.b1sGjjbm19N4&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/02/world/olympics/boxing-imane-khelif-gender-athletes.html?unlocked_article_code=1._00.uIl9.b1sGjjbm19N4&smid=url-share) ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/36 "2024-08-02T20:52:05Z")
So this pisses me off. I mean it’s bullshit whatever, but it’s even bullshit by the standards of the “gender critical” movement. Imane Khelif is a cis women. Her gender assigned at birth, the only one that matters according to the gender critical movement, is female. They are the ones saying hormones and superficial outward appearances don’t matter, only your “biological” “real” gender you were born with matters. Except in this case (which purely coincidentally is a woman of color from Africa) where her “real” gender doesn’t matter it’s only the alleged high testosterone levels that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/37 "2024-08-02T21:00:20Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Oh, there are sources. So it _is_ the fuckin’ Russians. Man, they should just be bottled up inside their borders until they can figure out how to stop being assholes to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/38 "2024-08-02T21:08:06Z")
Athletes _have_ in the past been deemed ineligible due to “failing” a testosterone test. That is why I was wondering what are the current official regulations. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/39 "2024-08-02T21:09:44Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > So this pisses me off. I mean it’s bullshit whatever, but it’s even bullshit by the standards of the “gender critical” movement. Yeah, as I said above, for the TERFs jumping on this train, this finally puts to bed the idea that they weren’t just foaming at the mouth bigots who hate people who are different and were really motivated by legitimate concerns about women’s spaces or whatever. Nope, they’re foaming at the mouth bigots who hate people just for being different. They see a woman who both passes the woman test under their own criteria, and also as far as we know did not choose to do anything to affirm her gender (even according to their own propaganda). She is just like this because that’s what biology does sometimes, and they still hate her because gender nonconformity is scary. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/40 "2024-08-02T21:13:19Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > > [@Cervaise](#): > > > > JK Rowling is a truly terrible human being who could not possibly be more full of hateful shit on this topic. Christ, I’m sick of her noise. > > A woman in my social circle […] Her nickname within the group was Hermione because early on she was all, “I know! I know! Pick me!” > > She’s asked us to not call her that any more. She has my sympathy. Speaking of hateful shit noise from JK Rowling that we’re sick of: I note that while she was trying to rev up the pity party for Angela Carini as a woman “whose life’s ambition” was “just shattered” by Khelif’s defeating her, she didn’t seem bothered by the fact that Carini’s “life’s ambition” had been equally “shattered” back in the 2020 Olympics when she lost a bout to Chen Nien-chin. Boxers lose competitions all the time, just like boxers get punched in the head all the time. If you don’t like either or both of those facts, you shouldn’t follow boxing. If I were Angela Carini, I’d be pretty mortified that a temporary setback in my high-achieving, incredibly tough and challenging elite boxing career was being spun by a self-serving transphobic asshole like JK Rowling into a patronizing sob story about “a male [sic] punching a female” and thereby “shattering” “her life’s ambition” and crushing her dreams, oh boo hoo hoo poor widdle baby. (Of course, I guess if you don’t want self-serving transphobic assholes spinning your elite sports competition into a patronizing sob story then maybe don’t burst into tears in public and refuse to shake your opponent’s hand when you lose said competition? Still, I’m willing to cut Carini some slack for suddenly having to swallow both the painful hit and the severe disappointment. I’m sure I personally would have reacted much worse.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161.md?page=3)