# Olympic Boxing Gender Controversy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161 "2024-08-01T22:13:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/61 "2024-08-03T01:22:53Z")
Oh, and for anyone wondering whether the IBA is acting in good faith about this eligibility issue rather than just stirring the shit, here’s an update [on the above-linked BBC Sport article about Carini’s apology:](https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/c2j3jg51rg4o) > [@](#): > > Later on Friday, the IBA president Umar Kremlev said his organisation would offer Carini $100,000 (£78,000) - which is the prize money it is offering gold medallists at the Games. That money would be split with half going to the boxer, a quarter to her trainer and a quarter to her federation. Hmmm, so you lost a bout (to a previously IBA-disqualified opponent) in the round of 16—which, even if you’d won it, would still leave you three other matches to win the gold—and so the IBA, purely out of the goodness of their hearts, decides to give you a consolation prize of a gold-medallist purse. Oh yeah, they’re not trying to exploit this controversy at all. Another amusing sidelight on all the Gender Hypocritical clutching of pearls about the Khelif-Carini fight being a shocking exhibition of “a male [sic] punching a female”: By her own account, apparently, [Carini voluntarily gets punched by males all the time.](https://www.thejournal.ie/angela-carini-wants-to-apologise-to-imane-khelif-boxing-ccontroversey-paris-games-6453957-Aug2024/) > [@](#): > > She added: “I fought very often in the national team. I train with my brother. I’ve always fought against men, but I felt too much pain today.” And just to recap, from the same article: > [@](#): > > The IBA released a statement this week which said the disqualification of Khelif and Taiwan’s Lin Yu-ting was a “result of their failure to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in the women’s competition”. > > However, the IBA has been mired in controversy in recent years and no longer has a role in boxing events at the Olympic Games. > > The International Olympic Council (IOC) is therefore running boxing events in the Paris Games, as it did for the Tokyo Games. > > The IOC rules include the need for boxers to have a “medical certificate duly stamped and signed by relevant medical authority within the previous three months”. > > Both Khelif and Lin Yu-ting competed at the Tokyo Games three years ago without controversy. > > The IOC said yesterday that the “current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure” by the IBA. > > IOC spokesperson Mark Adams also told reporters this week that “everyone competing in the women’s category… is complying with competition eligibility rules”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/62 "2024-08-03T02:20:59Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > Khelif gets the _honor_ of having at least three different billionaires bully her on social media. Three? Surely you’re not counting Trump as one of the billionaires, right? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/63 "2024-08-03T07:36:02Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > Since Rowling is so concerned about the safety of women and girls, I’m sure she has been equally vociferous about [convicted child rapist Steven van de Velde](https://wapo.st/46Bctkz) representing the Netherlands in beach volleyball. Got you covered. > ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/64 "2024-08-03T08:09:49Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > Khelif gets the _honor_ of having at least three different billionaires bully her on social media. She should challenge them to a boxing match. I hear they’re into that kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/65 "2024-08-03T15:19:36Z")
I’d pay money to see that. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/66 "2024-08-03T15:34:59Z")
It’s different than the 1973 Bobby Riggs, Billy Jean King match… but maybe it would be the Riggs-King match of our time? ( Or maybe the thought of some of those Bobby Riggs types being punched in the face repeatedly by someone whose life they have been trying to make a living Hell seems just.) ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/67 "2024-08-03T16:38:15Z")
> [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](#): > > but maybe it would be the Riggs-King match of our time? Nah, that already happened between Karsten Braasch and the Williams’ sisters. > **[Battle of the Sexes: When the World No. 203 swept the Williams sisters -...](https://amp.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468aeb99218b464c.html)** > > A great deal of controversy was created recently when former tennis pro John McEnroe claimed that multiple major winner Serena Williams would not be... ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/68 "2024-08-03T19:31:33Z")
Well, but Braasch was almost in the top 200 of all male tennis players in the world, so his victory wasn’t particularly surprising given the sex difference. I seriously doubt that any billionaire being an asshole about Khelif is close to ranking even in the top 20000 of all amateur fighters in the world, in any fighting style whatsoever. I don’t think any of them would stand a chance against her. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/69 "2024-08-03T19:39:09Z")
( To quote Ray Charles from that famous SNL sketch, “Shh…! Don’t tell 'em.” ) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/70 "2024-08-03T20:53:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > In a Substack post today, Alexander seems a bit…disturbed over the Olympic boxing brouhaha, which feeds his venom toward any persons (including transgender individuals) who don’t meet his standard of womanhood. > > > [@](#): > > > > Sick perverted mental deranged men! And don’t bring that shit around me! Nor my family!..I am willing to bet this sick filth animal is an islamist This person is clearly mentally ill. And mentally ill with crushing insecurity, by the looks of it. Of course human gender is not binary. Of course people who fail to conform to the illusory binary that the right wing demands, should receive full human rights and be treated with dignity. That said: the current Olympic boxing controversy proves that _the ‘designated at birth’ standard is ridiculously misleading and otherwise inadequate._ What matters in personal life may well be the chance to live your chosen identity to the full extent of personal fulfillment possible. **But what matters in sports is COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE.** All the flailing about how to divide people into Male Or Female is ignoring a basic fact about our species: young humans with predominantly male hormones will differ in skeletal and muscular development from young humans who grow up with predominantly female hormones. Those whose bodies were awash in male hormones will, on average, have greater strength and speed than those whose developing bodies were awash in female hormones. _This is nothing to do with what a doctor’s opinion may be of an infant’s genitals._ It’s something to do with XX and XY and all the variants, but only to the extent that those genetic expressions influence hormone production. People who grow up in bodies with predominantly male hormones will virtually always have a competitive advantage in sports over people who grew up in female-hormone bodies. Which is why the controversies are ALWAYS about people trying to compete in female-only competitions. Of course people should be able to dress as they like and use the pronouns they prefer and use the restrooms they prefer. End of story. **But competing in sports is different from these other aspects of life. It’s different because of the competitive advantage** conferred by growing up in a body with predominantly male hormones. Any discussions of who gets to participate in which sports must take this into account. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/71 "2024-08-03T20:57:42Z")
I guarantee you that any female Olympic athlete has a body that developed with significantly greater strength and speed than the female average. Whether it’s because of hormones or not, we don’t know. Just like we don’t know anything about these specific women’s hormones. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/72 "2024-08-03T21:09:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Just like we don’t know anything about these specific women’s hormones. That’s right. But what I’m saying is that the current methods of choosing who gets to compete in which events is ignoring hormones in favor of indicia which are largely irrelevant, such as what a doctor thought when the person was born. For fairness, hormones should matter. And, yes: women who compete at Olympics level will certainly differ in crucial physical ways from the mass of women who don’t so compete. But does that mean that, for instance, testing for steroid use (for all athletes) should cease? Most people would say no to that–because steroid use, which acts in ways similar to having extra testosterone, **confers a competitive advantage.** (And of course there are other problems with dosing with hormones.) ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/73 "2024-08-03T21:12:18Z")
So do you think Khelif schools have allowed to participate or not as a woman? What could she have done to satisfy your requirements? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/74 "2024-08-03T21:16:11Z")
I don’t have an opinion on Khelif because I don’t know enough. Certainly I consider it wholly illegitimate to say someone should be excluded because they don’t look stereotypically female. I’m saying that the whole brouhaha is rife with false arguments. ‘Assigned at birth gender,’ I see as a bad standard in every context I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/75 "2024-08-03T21:41:28Z")
Oh, so go inform yourself and then give us your decision. I thought you knew about the situation you were commenting on. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/76 "2024-08-03T21:44:09Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > . I thought you knew about the situation you were commenting on. I know that the talk about ‘gender assigned at birth’ is useless. And I said so. If the standard at SDMB became that no comment may be made without complete and perfect knowledge of the topic of discussion, then the site would shut down immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/77 "2024-08-03T22:05:46Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > confers a competitive advantage Lots of athletes have genetics that confer a competitive advantage. Are you saying Michael Phelps’ height, arm length, and lung capacity made him unfairly advantaged over other swimmers? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/78 "2024-08-03T22:11:18Z")
Yeah, by the time you get to the Olympics, in any sport, any notion of “fairness” has already gone out the window. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/79 "2024-08-03T22:12:19Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Are you saying Michael Phelps’ height, arm length, and lung capacity made him unfairly advantaged over other swimmers? No. But if Michael Phelps, whose body developed from puberty under the influence of mostly male hormones, tried to compete in women’s events, _that_ would be an unfair competitive advantage. Some of these responses seem to indicate a lack of belief that hormone-testing has been part of determining eligibility in elite athletic events. Here’s a good write-up–it dates back a few years, but does indicate the level of concern about hormonal influence in the modern era: > [@](#): > > Elite athletes tend to be a self-selecting group for physical outliers. Someone naturally has a better shot at rising to the top if he or she has an uncommon advantageous trait, whether it’s massive feet or a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers. But when it comes to testosterone, a steroid hormone that controls the development and maintenance of male characteristics, the issue of how the molecule affects women athletes has dogged professional sports. … > **[The trouble with the testosterone test](https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/110116/the-trouble-with-the-testosterone-test)** > > Using a "baseline" level of testosterone becomes problematic when women compete in track and field events. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/80 "2024-08-03T22:14:23Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Are you saying Michael Phelps’ height, arm length, and lung capacity made him unfairly advantaged over other swimmers? There is a lot of speculation that Phelps has some form of Marfan syndrome which gives him a genetic advantage. I have no idea if it’s true. I doubt it is honestly because I don’t see that argument being made anywhere reputable. But the idea is out there and some people believe it, as much BS as it probably is. Here is a tweet from some nitwit on Twitter (apparently a no name race car driver) arguing that the only reason why it’s okay for Phelps and not Khelif is because Phelps won’t kill anyone. [https://x.com/AgileHarvey/status/1819265307879334297](https://x.com/AgileHarvey/status/1819265307879334297) He also argues that “there’s a reason she was banned by the IBA” as if there was any validity to the organization. This is the shit these bigots are arguing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161.md?page=5)