# Olympic Boxing Gender Controversy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161 "2024-08-01T22:13:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/121 "2024-08-04T17:03:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Update: I would like to withdraw my above snarky remarks about Khelif’s defeated opponent Angela Carini, who now seems to have [issued an apology for her earlier behavior](https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/c2j3jg51rg4o) that’s gracious and decent, and incidentally respects Khelif’s female identity: > > > [@](#): > > > > “I’m sorry for my opponent, too. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.” > > > > Carini, also 25, said abandoning the fight had been a mature step to take, but she expressed regret at not shaking hands with Khelif afterwards. > > > > “It wasn’t something I intended to do,” Carini said. “Actually, I want to apologize to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke.” > > > > She added that if she met Khelif again, she would “embrace her”. […] > [@Kimstu](#): > > If I were Angela Carini, I’d be pretty mortified that a temporary setback in my high-achieving, incredibly tough and challenging elite boxing career was being spun by a self-serving transphobic asshole like JK Rowling… > > (Of course, I guess if you don’t want self-serving transphobic assholes spinning your elite sports competition into a patronizing sob story then maybe don’t burst into tears in public and refuse to shake your opponent’s hand when you lose said competition? Still, I’m willing to cut Carini some slack for suddenly having to swallow both the painful hit and the severe disappointment. I’m sure I personally would have reacted much worse.) I would calibrate further in the direction of sympathy for Carini. Generally speaking, the internet in general and this message board in particular does not favor apologies: somebody always chimes to say that the apology and self-flagellation didn’t go far enough. We don’t know what Carini was going through. I don’t have enough information to pass judgment on her character. Boxing is the only sport, “whose primary objective toward victory is to batter and damage an opponent into helplessness and the incapacity to continue”.[1] I think we should weigh considered remarks heavier than words blurted out at a time of high stress and cranial impact. This goes double when we consider the corruption of boxing in general, the involvement of Russian intelligence services in particular, and the very reasonable possibility that organized crime influenced this match. Sure there’s no direct evidence for the latter, but Olympic bouts have been thrown in the past and will be thrown in the future. [1] MMA victory can be secured via submission (joint locks). Also, MMA refs are instructed to dive in once the participant loses the ability to defend themselves. There’s nothing like the count of 10 to stand up and continue fighting. MMA matches tend to end earlier on the head damage continuum. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/122 "2024-08-04T17:07:22Z")
Her next opponent, a Hungarian, was unsurprisingly reposting quite vile memes and comments. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/123 "2024-08-04T18:34:33Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > So do you think Khelif should have been allowed to participate or not as a woman? What could she have done to satisfy your requirements? In terms of my own opinion: 1. We don’t even know the IBA test results that led them to rule her ineligible 2. My opinion throughout, has been that it is up to the various sporting bodies to decide, not me or any other armchair pundit. So in answer to your question, see (2): If the IOC has decided she’s eligible, she’s eligible ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/124 "2024-08-04T18:38:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Another layer of all this exasperating transphobic hypocrisy is the claim to be acting out of concern for female athletes and women’s sports, when what you’re doing is scrutinizing and denouncing female athletes for not “looking feminine” enough. > > What impact do they think this is having on even cisgender girl athletes who aren’t stereotypically pretty or feminine-looking? Do they imagine that the prospect of being raked over the coals in the media for their short hair, or their muscular appearance, or their heavy jaw, or whatever, makes the prospect of sports competition more appealing to those girls? > > These **vicious gender police** … You and a couple of other posters here have apparently assigned me that role (my bolding). How do you explain this: > [@Sherrerd](#): > > I consider it wholly illegitimate to say someone should be excluded because they don’t look stereotypically female. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > Of course people should be able to dress as they like and use the pronouns they prefer and use the restrooms they prefer. End of story. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > Of course human gender is not binary. Of course people who fail to conform to the illusory binary that the right wing demands, should receive full human rights and be treated with dignity. ??? You and the others are so eager to find a villain to excoriate that you aren’t even _reading_ the posts you label as being Bad and Wrong. That doesn’t speak well for you. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/125 "2024-08-04T18:40:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So if even Caster Semenya—who is literally the XY DSD poster child for gender police pearl-clutching about “Eeek oh noes a horrid brutal MAN messing up our delicate ladies’ athletics events!!”—cannot plausibly be described as anything close to totally “physiologically male” except for her vagina, then I think we need to be very careful about assuming that this hypothetical status of “totally physiologically male except for the vagina” is actually a thing. > > Once again, the complexity of real-life human sex and gender biology resists the natural human inclination to classify it according to a few simple separable criteria. For the first part, I don’t claim to be an expert on gender and I (and I think @Sherrerd) are both suggesting a nuanced view, not the opposite. In terms of the second, that’s the whole point: a lot here have focused on the potential problems if we’re saying that even someone assigned female at birth is potentially ineligible. But the opposite is also true; if we’re saying someone assigned female at birth is always automatically eligible that comes with problems too. And all this is separate to the criteria under which trans athletes can also compete. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/126 "2024-08-04T18:49:22Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > In terms of my own opinion: > > 1. We don’t even know the IBA test results that led them to rule her ineligible > 2. My opinion throughout, has been that it is up to the various sporting bodies to decide, not me or any other armchair pundit. I agree (and thank you for your earlier calm and well-reasoned posts). I came into this thread to make the point that ‘gender assigned at birth’ is not a useful or practical criterion for making decisions about sporting events. Somehow in the minds of a few, that turned me into an anti-trans person—a feat of illogic that still amazes. ---
**Author:** ![DETXL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/detxl/32/19366_2.png) [@DETXL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DETXL)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/127 "2024-08-04T20:11:49Z")
Okay, but I’d like to know more about these male “boxes” that can be “ticked.” Can anyone be more specific? I’m hoping there are enough I can put together a bingo card so me and my friends know where we stand. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/128 "2024-08-04T20:14:18Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I came into this thread to make the point that ‘gender assigned at birth’ is not a useful or practical criterion for making decisions about sporting events. The problem is that any other criteria\* is invasive and an intrusion of privacy. And it almost exclusively affects women, and unless it’s required of all women, primarily affects BIPOC women because they are less likely to conform to what is basically white body and facial characteristics. I do agree with you that gender assigned at birth is arbitrary, but if you aren’t going to follow up with “we should eliminate gender altogether from sports competition” you’re not really talking about equality in sports, just tying to “other” trans people \*with the important exception of “I am what I say I am” ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/129 "2024-08-04T21:27:07Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > What I’m saying is, I’m not convinced that gender assigned at birth is the best compromise line to draw for the future of sports and fairness to the most competitors. …it isn’t. Transwomen should be able to compete in womens sports. > [@Mijin](#): > > More to the point, I haven’t said exactly where the line should be. I’m just pushing back against the notion that some seem to have here, that gender assignment at birth is the obvious, fair measure. Nothing is obvious here, and any line is going to disadvantage someone. This isn’t what we are arguing. Its the transphobes and terfs that have argued that " that gender assignment at birth is the obvious, fair and ONLY measure. But now that isn’t good enough. What you are seeing is a pushback on the hypocrisy. Because now all of a sudden that _isn’t_ good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/130 "2024-08-04T21:35:32Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > I do agree with you that gender assigned at birth is arbitrary, but if you aren’t going to follow up with “we should eliminate gender altogether from sports competition” you’re not really talking about equality in sports, just tying to “other” trans people I don’t follow this logic at all. I am saying that gender is complex, there are many factors and it should be up to each sporting body. This is as _pro-trans_ as it is possible to be, except for the position that anyone can identify as a woman and enter women’s events no rules or questions asked. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2024, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/131 "2024-08-04T23:41:11Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > This is as _pro-trans_ as it is possible to be, except for the position that anyone can identify as a woman and enter women’s events no rules or questions asked. No, the _most_ pro-trans position would be to recognize that the entire “fairness in sports” issue exists entirely as part of a broad right-wing attack on trans rights and queer rights in general. There is no “problem” here that needs to be addressed. Most major sports organizations already had policies in place to handle the infintessimally small number of athletes in question, and there were no examples of a trans athlete performing significantly better than cis women at the same skill level. The reason **Sherrerd** ’s post is getting pushback is entirely because, by coming into a thread explicitly about transphobes flailing to find an example of an athlete that justifies their fear mongering, and trying to “Well _akshully_…” us into acting like there’s a genuine underlying concern here that needs to be addressed. There is not. This is a fake issue. **Sherrerd** is a tool for bringing it up at all, regardless of how many other socially conscious caveats he includes in his post. And to be clear, I don’t mean “tool” in the sense of “penis,” I mean it in the sense of “unwitting implement used to further a political agenda.” A liberal posting, “Of course I believe in trans rights, but we need to talk about hormone levels,” is just more fear-mongering over the issue, just like a conservative posting about a man competing in women’s boxing in the OIympics. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/132 "2024-08-05T00:06:12Z")
I think that, if we’re to decide exactly what attribute is necessary to qualify one to compete in women’s sporting events, we first need to decide why we have women’s sporting events in the first place. Is it so that everyone can compete? Obviously not, because the vast majority of the population, of any gender, can’t compete in an Olympic sport. Is it so that everyone can have someone they can identify with who’s competing? Now we’re getting into deciding on other peoples’ behalf whom they can and can’t identify with: I’m sure there are plenty of women who can identify with male athletes, or with trans athletes in either direction, and also plenty of women who can’t identify with particular cisfemale athletes for one reason or another. Is it because the people with the most money and power like seeing attractive women engaging in physical activity? One would hope not… but that does in fact seem to be a large part of why women’s sporting events exist. Remember last Olympics, when the women’s beach volleyball team from some Islamic country (I can’t remember which one) was disqualified because their uniforms weren’t sexy enough. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/133 "2024-08-05T00:18:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, the _most_ pro-trans position would be to recognize that the entire “fairness in sports” issue exists entirely as part of a broad right-wing attack on trans rights and queer rights in general. There is no “problem” here that needs to be addressed. Most major sports organizations already had policies in place to handle the infintessimally small number of athletes in question, and there were no examples of a trans athlete performing significantly better than cis women at the same skill level. I’m of the philosophy that you leave shit alone unless there’s a problem. Otherwise you _create_ a problem. The sports organizations seem to be fine. It’s a handful of concern trolls that are the only issue. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/134 "2024-08-05T00:20:39Z")
So, are you good with a trans person competing in the gender they’ve chosen? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/135 "2024-08-05T00:36:56Z")
This is pretty stupid and honestly offensive. Nerds really should stop from commenting on sports if they’re going to be so idiotic about it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/136 "2024-08-05T00:38:12Z")
Is there some problem of cisgender men claiming to be trans in order to compete in women’s sports? Specifically, are there any examples of it happening outside of bad direct-to-video comedies starring B-list former SNL cast members? If no then this is a solution in search of a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/137 "2024-08-05T01:01:25Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > So, are you good with a trans person competing in the gender they’ve chosen? I think it should be up to the relevant sporting organizations to decide; I am neither a doctor nor an expert on any particular sport. My own recommendation though would be neither that all trans should be eligible, nor that all trans should be ineligible. I think the former because gender transitioning is not yet at a level where the advantage conferred by going through puberty with high testosterone can be erased. I think the latter because “trans” is a very broad category and will include those who transitioned pre-puberty, or were just born with ambiguous genitalia but otherwise have the chromosomes, hormones etc of the group they want to join. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/138 "2024-08-05T01:30:23Z")
This is what anti-trans people claim that every trans woman in sports is doing, along with any woman they deem “too masculine so must be trans or intersex” That _is_ a real problem. I agree that it’s stupid to think that someone would go through transitioning just to get that advantage, you know, there are a lot of stupid people out there. Thus, I would consider this a litmus test on what someone really thinks ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/139 "2024-08-05T02:04:23Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > This is pretty stupid and honestly offensive. Nerds really should stop from commenting on sports if they’re going to be so idiotic about it. Care to be more specific? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/140 "2024-08-05T02:08:51Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > This is what anti-trans people claim that every trans woman in sports is doing, along with any woman they deem “too masculine so must be trans or intersex” > > That _is_ a real problem In that case, I suggest that the solution is to point and laugh at the weirdos who are obsessed with what a stranger’s genitals look like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161.md?page=8)