# Olympic Boxing Gender Controversy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161 "2024-08-01T22:13:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/161 "2024-08-05T07:35:45Z")
Gotcha, thanks. I think I was just framing it in a slightly different way. There is a potential issue, but it’s been solved, so bringing it up now is no longer a genuine debate. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/162 "2024-08-05T08:46:28Z")
I suppose another possibility is that underlying all of this is some sort of addiction to hatred; hate is the drug and the TERFiness just happens to be the delivery method. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/163 "2024-08-05T09:11:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > what he probably really meant is that he preferred watching the sport when there were more expectations about players conforming to conventional gender norms of appearance Actually, what he meant was that he liked watching the sport when he could imagine hitting on the players. And what _I_ meant was that the guy was a boorish jackwagon who I’m better off not knowing. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/164 "2024-08-05T11:41:30Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > The only way to tell if you are not female if you say that you are is with intrusive tests. But I would say that external genitalia is probably the thing we care the least about. From the sports point of view, who cares if someone has ambiguous genitalia, we don’t need to see that. So the tests that would be more appropriate to do are largely going to be analogous to drug testing. But again IANA doctor. > [@Zyada](#): > > The second problem is that you assume that testosterone confers a clear advantage. This is unproven. I didn’t say testosterone per se, I said testosterone during puberty. Someone who goes through puberty with the ~30x increase in testosterone that is typical for boys will have the skeleton, skeletal muscle and proportionately lower body fat that typifies male sexual dimorphism in humans. It makes far less difference what their testosterone level is later in life. But I am confused as to what your position is. You seemed to be implying earlier that you don’t think that everybody who identifies as female should be able to join women’s events…so you’re agreeing that there is an advantage for people who developed initially with male traits, right? So why are you apparently questioning that here? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/165 "2024-08-05T12:01:11Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > “Women’s sporting events exist because people want to watch attractive women” is pretty fucking offensive to women. The fact that that’s true is extremely offensive to women, yes. Given the fact that it’s true, recognizing that fact and pointing it out is the opposite of offensive; it’s the first step towards getting an offensive situation fixed. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Unsurprisingly, the average level for the female athletes is much lower (typically assigned a range between 0 and 10 nmol/L) than that for male athletes (typically assigned a range of 10-35 nmol/L). But what’s more surprising is not only that a few (about 5%) of the female athletes have T levels well up in the typical male range, but a whole lot (a couple hundred, over 25%) of the male athletes have T levels well down in the typical female range. Interesting… How did either group compare to the typical testosterone levels of men and women in the general population? Do athletes typically have similar T levels to non-athletes? > [@Mijin](#): > > I didn’t say testosterone per se, I said testosterone during puberty. Someone who goes through puberty with the ~30x increase in testosterone that is typical for boys will have the skeleton, skeletal muscle and proportionately lower body fat that typifies male sexual dimorphism in humans. It makes far less difference what their testosterone level is later in life. OK, so how do we test for that? Give everyone testosterone tests at age 13, to be put on file in case they ever become world-class athletes? Or actually, tests every year from 10 to 16, because not everyone goes through puberty at the same age? We’re going to need a lot more lab techs. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/166 "2024-08-05T12:25:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, so how do we test for that? Give everyone testosterone tests at age 13, to be put on file in case they ever become world-class athletes? Or actually, tests every year from 10 to 16, because not everyone goes through puberty at the same age? We’re going to need a lot more lab techs. Who was talking about testing? I had made this statement: > [@Mijin](#): > > gender transitioning is not yet at a level where the advantage conferred by going through puberty with high testosterone can be erased. and then the point was put to me that the advantage of testosterone is not proven, so I reiterated that I was talking about development through puberty. I have made no claim about what can or can’t be tested, instead I have said it should be up to sporting organizations and doctors to decide. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/167 "2024-08-05T13:32:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > > > “Women’s sporting events exist because people want to watch attractive women” is pretty fucking offensive to women. > > The fact that that’s true is extremely offensive to women, yes. Given the fact that it’s true, recognizing that fact and pointing it out is the opposite of offensive; it’s the first step towards getting an offensive situation fixed. Yikes. The original phrasing of this was fine. You were hypothesizing that some rich people may **think** this is the reason they exist, or the reason **they** want it to exist. But this wording made me think you were stating it as fact, and I was all fired up ready to go into at least the basic history of women’s sports. (That part of my brain fires before the part that goes back and checks.) But to put it simply: the opposite is true. When women’s sports were first taking off, it was thought that too much competition and training made for masculine looking, sterile\* women who would be profoundly unattractive. But, over time women were reluctantly allowed to play in more “feminine” sports. It was largely women fighting for their rights that led to women’s sports. Feminine beauty standards have changed, and athletic women are more regularly recognized as attractive. But the underlying idea of some looking “too masculine” persists, and has been woven in with this transphobic thing. These people are the ideological descendants of the men who were against women’s sports. \*Literally. They thought it harmed their uterus and would make them infertile. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/168 "2024-08-05T14:39:45Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > It may not be 100% the reason for women’s sports in the Olympics, but it’s certainly a factor. > And women are well aware of it Considering the difference in women’s and men’s uniforms, it seems to me unlikely that anybody who’s paying attention isn’t aware of it. I presume the women competing in those sports despite that difference in uniforms have other reasons for doing so, however; and that at least some of the audience watches for those other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/169 "2024-08-05T17:30:25Z")
Right. (A certain segment of) straight men approve of women’s sports because it means attractive women showing off their bodies, and so that segment of men, when they see women who they don’t find attractive competing in women’s sports, say “No, foul! That’s not the sort of person who’s supposed to be competing in women’s sports!”. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/170 "2024-08-05T17:38:47Z")
Here’s an anecdote. When I was in high school, a couple of friends of mine and I would sometimes hang out in a classroom during lunch time (instead of the cafeteria) and watch TV. The teacher in charge of that room didn’t mind and let us do it. We got into the habit at one point of watching women’s beach volleyball. Now, my friends were quite openly interested in the women. We were teen boys after all. Secretly though, I was enjoying the actual game more than the women. Don’t get me wrong, I’m straight and I appreciate a scantily-clad woman bouncing around as much as the next guy. But I had played and enjoyed beach volleyball games on my Nintendo years earlier which were a gateway into an interest in the sport (both male and female). I went along with them to fit in but secretly I was just excited by the sport itself. My point is that there is absolutely a portion of the male population that enjoys watching female sports due to the women being attractive, more than the sport itself, and I’ve had first-hand experience with that. It’s also the reason why “lingerie league” football exists (though it was rebranded at one point). > **[X League (women's football)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_League_(women's_football))** > > The Extreme Football League (X League) is a women's semi-professional indoor American football league operating in the United States. The league was originally founded in 2009 as the Lingerie Football League (LFL), and later rebranded as the Legends Football League in 2013. > On December 13, 2019, the league announced that it would not be holding a 2020 season and that it had instead restructured under its current name, placing new teams mostly in the same locations as the 2019 LFL season. The ... ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/171 "2024-08-05T17:40:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > (A certain segment of) straight men approve of women’s sports because it means attractive women showing off their bodies, and so that segment of men, when they see women who they don’t find attractive competing in women’s sports, say “No, foul! That’s not the sort of person who’s supposed to be competing in women’s sports!”. Good thing they’re not aware of hammer throw or shot put. I think they’d lose their minds. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/172 "2024-08-06T00:15:06Z")
There has been a press conference. It was an Olympic-scale mess. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2024/08/05/umar-kremlev-olympic-boxing/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2024/08/05/umar-kremlev-olympic-boxing/) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/173 "2024-08-06T00:33:18Z")
Yikes. I’ve seen Trump press conferences that were better organized and more professional. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/174 "2024-08-06T00:43:15Z")
Wowza. From D\_G’s link: > [@](#): > > The IBA’s leader, Russian sports businessman Umar Kremlev, has repeatedly alleged without proof that a test revealed the women had XY chromosomes, suggesting they had a testosterone advantage over other fighters. […] > > So on Monday the IBA pushed back, promising “detailed explanations” for its ruling. […] > > Roberts spoke first, saying he couldn’t show any test results because the Algerian and Taiwanese Olympic committees had sent letters demanding the alleged results stay private. […] > > Kremlev spoke about how he was standing up for women’s sports while IOC President Thomas Bach was trying to destroy them. […] > > When Kremlev finished, Filippatos started to talk about how, as a man who has delivered many babies, he is qualified to decide who is a woman. […] > > More questions came but few answers. How much was Kremlev paying them? How much of the IBA’s funding still comes from the Russian energy company Gazprom, which had for a time been the IBA’s lone sponsor? […] > > The news conference stretched past an hour, with the men on the dais saying that they don’t test all boxers for testosterone irregularities and had only chosen four at the 2022 championships, including Khelif and Lin, and then only Khelif and Lin in 2023. They did not say the results of the 2022 tests or why those athletes were selected, other than vague references to complaints from opposing countries. […] > > Kremlev reappeared and attacked Bach and the Olympics. He spoke vaguely of “high testosterone.” […] But OMG you guys: 🤣 🤣 > [@](#): > > The news conference dragged past 1½ hours. […] > > One of Khelif’s Olympic boxing teammates, a 50 kg (110 pounds) fighter named Roumaysa Boualam […] wore an Algerian team jacket and a necklace with Olympic rings, and she carried an Algerian flag. > > Many of the reporters abandoned their seats to surround her. Kremlev kept talking. […] > > Boualam stood up and held her Algerian flag high over her head. > > “One, two, three, viva l’Algérie!” she shouted. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/175 "2024-08-06T01:11:40Z")
I wouldn’t have guessed this previously, but it now seems to me distinctly plausible that Umar Kremlev simply doesn’t understand the difference between having an above-average testosterone level and having a Y chromosome. 🤣 🙄 🙄 My other current entirely-unverified speculations on this whole shitshow: - Still possible but looking more suspect: The claim that Imane Khelif and/or Lin Yu-ting did actually obtain disqualifying results in 2023 from some kind of legitimate gender-eligibility test which knocked them out of the 2023 championships, consistently with officially established rules (but which does not necessarily preclude their being eligible, as indeed they evidently are, to compete in the current Olympics). - Still possible but looking WAY more suspect: The claim that Khelif and/or Lin has a Y chromosome, along with some kind of XY DSD (which likewise would not in itself disqualify them from Olympic competition). (Apropos of which, [this previously linked article](https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/news/4847630) about Lin reports a suggested explanation, which for all I know may be no more than sheer speculation, of her failing the 2023 eligibility test due to hormonal irregularities caused by menstrual-cycle-regulating medications. If Lin does in fact have a menstrual cycle, then AFAIK that would at the very least drastically limit the chances of her having been born with some kind of XY DSD.) - Still seems pretty CT, but not as far-fetched as I originally thought: The hypothesis that Khelif and/or Lin actually had no disqualifying gender-eligibility test results last year at all (and indeed, they both seem to have been competing for years without any such disqualification prior to the 2023 event), but were deliberately targeted or scapegoated by the IBA in some way for some kind of corrupt reason. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/176 "2024-08-06T01:38:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I wouldn’t have guessed this previously, but it now seems to me distinctly plausible that Umar Kremlev simply doesn’t understand the difference between having an above-average testosterone level and having a Y chromosome. Alternately, he doesn’t care, because the whole thing is a lie made up ad hoc because she beat a Russian, and he’s used to the “Whatever I say is true and you peasants have no right to question me” approach that works in the Russian media. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/177 "2024-08-06T01:52:01Z")
As I said, the extent to which that possibility at present seems really-not-completely-absurd is kinda shocking. But I am still baffled about the presumptive rationale. I mean, other boxers beat Russian competitors all the time. Why pick on Khelif, and Lin, specifically? Is it because they’re both short-haired and fairly flat-chested and could be described with some stereotypes about being “mannish”-looking? I.e., that makes them plausible targets? Couldn’t lots of other female boxers be targeted in the same way as too “muscular” and “masculine”? I do notice that a greater number of them seem to wear their hair long, and honestly that’s starting to look like a smart move, with the way these athletes are getting gender-policed all over the place. Disgraceful that it should be necessary, though. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/178 "2024-08-06T01:56:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Is it because they’re both short-haired and fairly flat-chested and could be described with some stereotypes about being “mannish”-looking? I.e., that makes them plausible targets? I’d say you’ve hit the nail on the head. Russia has become quite savvy about taking advantage of maga culture war bullshit, so they likely saw that they could accuse them of being men and the Rowlings and Musks and Tates of the world would do the heavy lifting for them. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/179 "2024-08-06T02:17:01Z")
I don’t think it was mentioned in the first article, but at one point in the interview Kremlev called the president of the IOC a sodomite. > **[IBA boss who disqualified two boxers in gender row brands them 'men'](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13710423/IBA-press-conference-gender-row-boxers-Imane-Khelif-Lin-Yu-Ting-ineligible-Olympics.html)** > > MIKE KEEGAN: In an shambolic press conference Umar Kremlev attempted to clarify why his association threw out Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting from their World Championships. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161/180 "2024-08-06T02:31:47Z")
Do any sports have separate governing bodies for female events? It’s disgusting watching these men lord over women’s competition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/olympic-boxing-gender-controversy/1005161.md?page=10)