Chicago Tribune editorial.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/article/0,2669,SAV-0107160227,FF.html
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~hrca/Sport_and_human_rights.htm
So, is this true?
http://www.usis.usemb.se/human/human95/korearep.htm
Do some of the Old China Hands want to go peruse this document and see whether it’s an improvement over pre-1988 levels, because I personally have no clue?
I think it might be prudent to point out that China’s competition for the Olympics in 2008 aren’t shining examples of Human Rights either. Turkey’s recent murder of 28 political prisoners springs to mind…
Please note, this is not intended to be Toronto bashing:
Actually, I am rather glad that the Olympics went to Beijing (especially as opposed to here in Canada). I am more than a little sick of the civic boosters and bored business types here in Canada (Calgary, Toronto, Vancouver) cheering for the Olympic bids of their cities out of one side of their mouths while calling for cuts to social programs to reduce their tax load out of the other side of their mouths.
I would like them to sit their well fed asses down and read through the “Have you experienced homelessness” thread over in IMHO.
Although I doubt it would sink in, there time could be better spent addressing that, and a host of other issues, as opposed to flag waving and bragging about penis (whoops, I meant city) sizes.
Is this sort of like “You can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs”? :)**
China has a history of thousands of years of rule by autocrats/tyrants. I would not presume to say that the Chinese people want non-representative rule or are content with their situation. We have no way of knowing just what percentage of the citizenry oppose their government, either quietly or by open dissension, but the level of brutality that meets protesters suggests the government is scared to death of dissent. **
I’d love to find out just how you know this. The Soviets ran their empire with few external cracks showing for many years, but the rapidity with which it dissolved indicates to me that there was a sizable undercurrent of discontent.**
If you are trying to equate our imperfections with the situation in China (including handing out of the death penalty for crimes such as pimping and “corruption”, and the seizing of body parts of executed prisoners for sale to transplant patients), then I suggest your vision is considerably clouded.**
I think it has been pointed out here that many observers, including Amnesty International, have been critical of extreme human rights abuses in China. ML/Raven’s position is that of an avowed Communist hurling agitprop. God knows what the other extreme to that is, but you can’t label people extremists because they point out the fallacies of ludicrous propaganda.
Yes, the government is scared of dissent but it is not monolithic either and there are many degrees. Many are more for openness while others are not. Many Chinese feel internal divisions are what gave foreign powers an advantage in colonizing China and they believe a strong autocratic government is better. They do not have the tradition of tolerance that we have in the west and it is a vicious circle as the government propaganda incites nationalism and equates it with the government. Many Chinese see dissenters as traitors or, at least, as useful to outside forces negative to China’s interests.
To me it is inadmissable to persecute Falun Gong even if there are only a total of ten. That is because i believe (by western standards) that every individual has rights which the government cannot take away. But the Chinese have not grown up with this concept like I have. You just cannot judge them by our standards. They are a different culture and they do not share our values just as we do not share theirs. I still think ours our better and we should try to propagate them but you have to realise they do not share them and trying to impose them would backfire.
But Falun Gong and other persecuted groups are not a majority, they are a very small minority. I am not saying I agree with it, I am just saying the majority of the Chinese people do not feel persecuted by their government. In fact, if you bring up this topic they will often have the attitude of “that is Chinese internal affairs and none of the business of other countries – we don’t tell you how to run your country so kindly abstain from telling us how to run ours”.
By the way, I have travelled to China every winter for the last 6 years and have spent an average of 4 -6 weeks each time. I have quite a few friends there with whom I am in touch constantly by email and phone and I do follow the news as reported by Chinese and western media. I do not claim to be an expert in China by any means but I do feel I have grasped the essentials of the Chinese people and their culture and mentality.
I constantly preach to them the virtues of our western system of liberties and respect for those in the minority who disagree with the majority. In fact, by their reaction, I probably overdo it. I am not disagreeing with the premise that our system of values is better. I am saying there is no way for us to impose it on the Chinese people. All we can do is preach and put some pressure and help them go in the right direction.
I am not trying to equate anything with anything except that peoples and cultures do not change overnight. America cannot do it and China cannot do it. It seems you are advocating China should open up completely overnight and I say that is not possible and if it were possible it would probably not be desirable for them or us. The rest of the world prefers a stable China evolving towards a more free system than an unstable China which would be the source of great problems for us. One of the myths that I have to often deny to my Chinese friends is that the west are doing what they can to keep China down. The West has an interest in keeping the region stable and not causing friction. An orderly development is best for China and for us. The Chinese have noted the collapse of the Soviet Union and are trying very hard not to go that way. They are having a very successful economic expansion which, I have no doubt, will lead to greater freedom. But to go now talking to the hungry masses about voting rights is just not realistic. Don’t forget millions of people in the US do not vote.
Amnesty International, (of which I am a member) reports the situation in China and I agree with them that I would like to see it improve. But AI is not governing China and they have no plans to do so. They have no concrete plans of how to get China from where it is to where we would like it to be.
If you are interested in helping improve the situation in China, the best thing you can probably do is make some friends there and exchange views. Travel there and see the country and the people. They are a great people and very friendly. By explaining to them the basis of our form of government you are planting the seeds of change. People get defensive when you say “my country is better than your country”. But I try to present things to them more impersonally. Democracy, respect for those who dissent, are not values which belong to the US or to any country in particular. They are values which have proven successful in mantaining social order and providing the best opportunities for all. China can use them just like anybody else and should not feel they are “un-Chinese” values. That is my approach. But making absolute assertions about how wrong they are and how right we are is just not going to help. Just imagine how Americans would feel if some foreigner did the same thing here.
I’m glad that you sense feelings of good will from your contacts in China, not that they appear to be shared by the ruling elite. In what context do you make your China trips?
Originally posted by sailor **
What in your opinion would constitute effective “pressure”, apart from denying lucrative and/or ego-gratifying compensations like favored nation trading status or the privilege of hosting the Olympics to nations engaged in warmongering or gross domestic abuses?
OK, if it will make you feel any better, how’s about getting a broken broom handle rammed up your rectum by a NYC police officer? You can choose not to go to “Tianenmen” Square, but you can’t help being outside your own neighborhood in NYC.
How many Orions will it take to ferry the US Olympic team?
Kudos to you. Your summary is the most perfect and accurate I’ve seen yet on this board.
tracer - Look, it’s not the close calls I have a problem with. It’s the completely, horribly wrong decisions which are allowed to stand that get my ire up. I have no problem with a gymnatsics team enforcing a bizarre rule to give the US team a .5 point deduction and knock us out of contention; the rule’s there, and the man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time should have known better. But anytime something happens which goes completely AGAINST the rules, if not common sense, and it stands (and with extremely rare exceptions, it always does), that’s not just wrong, it’s completely anathema to the spirit of the Olympics. Furthermore, there’s never any accountability whatsoever. If an NFL referee blows calls that give the wrong team a final wild card spot, he gets fired. One NBA referee was hounded out of work because of ONE bad call he made against Clyde Drexler during a playoff game. In the Olympics, you can set a vault too low (i.e. not even conforming to regulation, making a mockery out of the whole contest) and two weeks later no one even remembers.
I have no illusions about the Olympics promoting world peace or the ideals of amateur athletics. But at minimum, and especially with the eyes of the world on it, it should at least be legitimate. Every screwball decision that passes without a whisper from the IOC compromises its legitimacy as a sporting event.
(I started a thread on this during the Sydney games. It hardly got any responses. I still don’t know why.)
Okay, back to the OP, yay… 
China deserves the Olympics. Because it pushed for them, because it has a long history of sporting excellence (state-mandated or otherwise), and because Asia is one of the continents on the planet. Human rights concerns and systems of government are just a smokescreen.
My real concern is whether they’ll be ready…will the facilities be up and running, will the transportation system be adequate, communications, accomodations, all the practical concerns. In many ways, China is still a backwards nation, and they may not be ready for a world showcase. Still, they have seven years to prepare, so anything is possible.
Major Feelgud, thanks for the compliment. I had lost track of this thread.
Yes, China needs to get ready but you’d be surprised. While it is true that the great majority of the country is quite poor, they have developed some areas and sectors as you would not believe. The most modern underground metro I have seen is in Guangzhou. I believe the trains were built by AEG-Siemens. They are very long and have no separate cars, just one continuous tube. It is a very strange feeling when you are riding the train in a straight line and it is so long you cannot see the end even though there’s nothing in the way. You would be amazed at the modernity of many things in China. They are advancing very fast.
I’m sure the Chinese appreciate everyone’s concern for their welfare, but what I’ve been wondering is this:
What will it hurt to let the games be held in China?
It may not open China to foreigners. It may not result in any Westernization at all. But what will it hurt? Will we begrudge the Chinese a surge of nationalism that could very well lead to more benevolence on the people’s behalf?
Do you think the athletes care where it’s held? I really doubt it. They care about the sport. And I think they have it true. The Olympics are about Humanity not Government and I don’t think anybody has any right to say that one country has any more right to humanity than any other. I really think that this event has the potential of being a pivotal factor in the China’s disclosure. I think it will be interesting to see the thousands of dissidents rounded up two months before the games and marched off to Siberia. If China can’t live up to hosting humanity then that’s a different matter, but we owe her millions and millions and millions the right to give it a shot, don’t we? What gives us the right to judge them on a scale like that?
I agree whole-heartedly with Jon, and I’d also like to temporarily hijack this and say welcome to the boards, Jon! I’m glad you’ve joined our Catalyst-induced cult.