# OMG ~1/10th of Polish leadership wiped out in plane crash **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674 "2010-04-10T22:31:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/1 "2010-04-10T22:31:42Z")
You’ve probably heard by now, [but…](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/world/europe/11poland.html?hp) > [@Flight Manifest](#): > > Lech Kaczyński, President of Poland > Maria Kaczyńska, First Lady of Poland > Krystyna Bochenek, Deputy Speaker of the Senat > Bishop Mirosław Chodakowski, Orthodox Ordinary of the Polish Army > Leszek Deptuła, member of the Sejm > Grzegorz Dolniak, member of the Sejm > Janina Fetlińska, member of the Senat > General Franciszek Gągor, Chief of the Polish Army General Staff > Grażyna Gęsicka, member of the Sejm > Przemysław Gosiewski, member of the Sejm > Mariusz Handzlik, Undersecretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland > Izabela Jaruga-Nowacka, member of the Sejm > Ryszard Kaczorowski, the last President of the Polish government-in-exile > Sebastian Karpiniuk, member of the Sejm > Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta, Commander-in-chief of the Polish Navy > Janusz Kochanowski, Polish Ombudsman > Andrzej Kremer, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs > Janusz Kurtyka, Historian and president of the Institute of National Remembrance > Tomasz Merta, Undersecretary of the Ministry of Culture and National Heritage > Aleksandra Natalli-Świat, member of the Sejm > Piotr Nurowski, President of the Polish Olympic Committee > Maciej Płażyński, President of the Polish Community association > Tadeusz Płoski, bishop of the Military Ordinariate of the Polish Army > Krzysztof Putra, Deputy Speaker of the Sejm > Andrzej Przewoźnik, Secretary-General of the Council for the Defence of the Memory of Struggle and Suffering > Ryszard Rumianek, Rector of the Cardinal Stefan Wyszyński University > Arkadiusz Rybicki, member of the Sejm > Sławomir Skrzypek, President of the National Bank of Poland > Władysław Stasiak, Chief of the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland > Aleksander Szczygło, head of the National Security Bureau > Jerzy Szmajdziński, Deputy Speaker of the Sejm > Jolanta Szymanek-Deresz, member of the Sejm > Anna Walentynowicz, free trade union activist, member of Solidarity > Zbigniew Wassermann, member of the Sejm > Wiesław Woda, member of the Sejm > Edward Wojtas, member of the Sejm > Paweł Wypych, Secretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland > Stanisław Zając, member of the Senate …were killed this morning in a plane crash. What an unbelievable accident. This is something out of a Tom Clancy novel. As someone on another forum said, it’s maybe the equivalent of the POTUS and Joint Chiefs crashing their plane into Ground Zero on the anniversary of 9/11. Unreal. My condolences to all Polish citizens. What are the implications for eastern Europe? ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/2 "2010-04-10T22:36:02Z")
I’m very fond of Poland. I spent two years of my life there, those totally pivotal years ('90-'92) when Solidarity triumphed and democracy arrived. I know how much Katyn means to them, and I’m sure many are suspicious that the Russians did this on purpose. There’s a harsh history between these 2 countries. But I think Poland is strong enough to get through this. The people will be shocked, but then they’ll build their democratic government right back up. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/3 "2010-04-10T22:39:10Z")
Sad. Very sad. I’m surprised they didn’t have rules about so many in the government traveling on the same plane… ---
**Author:** ![History\_Mystery\_and\_the\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/53a042/32.png) [@History\_Mystery\_and\_the\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/History_Mystery_and_the_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/4 "2010-04-10T23:53:12Z")
‘Luckily’ for Poland, the President is primarily a ceremonial figure. The Prime Minister, who is actually the locus of political power, was not on the plane. Poland will survive. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/5 "2010-04-11T00:06:20Z")
My condolences to all the Polish people. A terrible, terrible loss. The circumstances and the location certainly look suspicious, at first glance, but hopefully this will just turn out to have been a tragic accident. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/6 "2010-04-11T00:26:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m surprised they didn’t have rules about so many in the government traveling on the same plane… This is exactly what I thought. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/7 "2010-04-11T00:40:35Z")
That’s insane. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/8 "2010-04-11T00:49:04Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > This is exactly what I thought. Me too. I also was going to send condolences to my one Polish friend, but I realized I’ve lost her email. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/9 "2010-04-11T02:00:56Z")
My condolences to Poland and to the families of the dead. That said, this is going to be the most fertile ground for breeding conspiracy theories since 9/11, if not more so. That’s not going to be good. It’s especially sad as relations between Poland and Russia appeared to be on the mend recently. I hope the Poles have a strategy to get an interim government in place and that everyone learns not to put all your government in a vulnerable position at once. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/10 "2010-04-11T03:54:36Z")
This is a very difficult accident to spin into a conspiracy theory. From what I understand, there was heavy fog, and the pilots had tried three times to land and had to go around because they couldn’t acquire the runway when they got to the decision point. Unless Putin can create fog on demand, and then command the pilots to miss the runway a couple of times to make it look good then crash and kill themselves, this was an accident. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/11 "2010-04-11T04:22:51Z")
Does this mean that John Goodman will take over now? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/12 "2010-04-11T04:37:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sad. Very sad. > > I’m surprised they didn’t have rules about so many in the government traveling on the same plane… Other than the President there weren’t any full members of the cabinet onboard; just a few deputy ministers. However most of Polands top _military_ commanders where onboard; including the deputy minister of defence, the chief of the general staff, and the chiefs of the army, navy, & air force. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/13 "2010-04-11T21:07:19Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > What are the implications for eastern Europe? Not much. The PM survived and all the dead officials can be replaced. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/14 "2010-04-11T21:21:04Z")
In a democracy, no official is, or ought to be, irreplaceable. This is still a terrible tragedy for the people of Poland. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/15 "2010-04-11T21:25:16Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Unless Putin can create fog on demand, . Duuude!! HAARP, man, the ruskies made their version first!! [/CT] ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/16 "2010-04-11T21:34:21Z")
> [@History\_Mystery\_and\_the\_Wolf](#): > > ‘Luckily’ for Poland, the President is primarily a ceremonial figure. The Prime Minister, who is actually the locus of political power, was not on the plane. ‘primarily a ceremonial figure’ sort of understates it though - the president is much more powerful than that esp. if the PM is of the same party. See a related thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=559209) for some more discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Neverending\_Elbow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e274bd/32.png) [@Neverending\_Elbow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neverending_Elbow)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/17 "2010-04-11T21:40:48Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Does this mean that John Goodman will take over now? I really, truly hope not. What would be the implications of THAT?! :eek: On a more serious note, we are going to be fine. It would have been more difficult had the Prime Minister been there instead of the President. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/18 "2010-04-11T21:48:57Z")
The Poles are claiming that Russian-Polish relations will be better because of this crash, due to the way that the Russians have reacted. There’s no chance that this was a Russian caused crash: the Polish President has a history of forcing pilots to land planes against their judgement in the past, according to the BBC, and everybody on board surely wanted to land at Katyn, and not elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/19 "2010-04-11T22:42:42Z")
> [@Neverending\_Elbow](#): > > I really, truly hope not. > > What would be the implications of THAT?! :eek: > > On a more serious note, we are going to be fine. It would have been more difficult had the Prime Minister been there instead of the President. It was a reference to the movie [King Ralph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Ralph) :D. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674/20 "2010-04-12T00:07:30Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This is a very difficult accident to spin into a conspiracy theory. From what I understand, there was heavy fog, and the pilots had tried three times to land and had to go around because they couldn’t acquire the runway when they got to the decision point. > > Unless Putin can create fog on demand, and then command the pilots to miss the runway a couple of times to make it look good then crash and kill themselves, this was an accident. Given today’s technology the conspiracy folks will wonder why an aircraft with heads of state can’t land in fog. A handheld GPS and a FLIR visual system (off the shelf technology) can put a low-time VFR pilot on the runway in an emergency. The plane was dumping fuel which means they over-fueled it for landing or there was a mechanical. There is also a suggestion that President Lech Kaczynski may have pressured the pilot to land. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omg-1-10th-of-polish-leadership-wiped-out-in-plane-crash/535674.md?page=2)